December 26, 2003
The Quincunx
A quincunx is the arrangement of five items with four forming the corner of a square and the fifth centered between them, as with the pips on a die. Charles Palliser's The Quincunx is a book obsessed with the number five. It is made up of five parts, each composed of five books, each composed of five chapters; it tells the story of five doomed generations of five branches on a family tree. I'm not sure whether Palliser had crazy Oulipo-esque mirrorings, where as you dig further into the structure each whole element reveals itself to be five smaller components, but I wouldn't put it past him; the figure of the quincunx (and quincunxes of quincunxes) is itself a major plot point on at least three occasions. But beyond the formal gameplaying, The Quincunx is mostly an unashamed page-turner. Its hero, John Mellamphy, begins the novel as an upper-class child in the rural England of the early nineteenth century, but he does not stay there for long. His mother (a widow, or so she claims) is vague about her past; she believes that there is some sort of conspiracy against them that revolves around a mysterious document in her possession and her unnamed enemies who would kill to obtain it. Her predictions are, of course, accurate, and the Mellamphy household suffers a number of reversals, slipping into direst penury in the slums of London. From there, it's a whirlwind tour of lost wills, buried family scandals, insane asylums, arguments about the morality of law and man's innate nature, gangs of criminals, murder plots, fallen women, low humor among the servant class, dark doings in the London sewers, stock fraud, mad aunts, thwarted romance, &c. The first thirty pages or so were slow going, and I found myself asking why my friend recommended this so highly. Everything after that was a wonderful blur; it's all of Dickens (of whom I am not fond, but after this I am considering giving Bleak House another try) put through a blender and then cranked up to 11. Yummy good fun, and the perfect beach book for the howling winter months.
I think it is a brilliant book, you can't leave the story till it's finished. Then, all those characters hunt you and you keep asking yourself what the hell happened the wedding night. Who was John's father- Martin Fortisquince I would say - and you pray for a second part. We all want to know if our unfortunate hero managed to make justice or not in the future. I love this book and it is one of the most interesting plots I've ever read.
Yes, it occurred to me that Martin was the dad. I don't think Peter and Mary had time to consummate their marriage, for one thing. Then Martin appears.
I was puzzled by the last sentence. John says that his grandfather killed Lydia's intended. Was this Sancious? Butt supposedly, John's grandfathers are John, Mary's father, and Silas Clothier, Peter's father. And if it's Martin, then it's Martin's father.
Also, I thought that John was a little rough on Henrietta.
"Also, I thought that John was a little rough on Henrietta."
That was one of the nicest things about the end, in my mind; John's treatment of Henrietta, his dismissal of the promise he made Sukey and Harry, the rather shocking way he dismisses Joey, and his attitude to the estate all make it perfectly clear that when he's not being a Dickensian hero, John's something of a worm.
Jeannot, the exact wording is "by my grandfather's sword." Palliser is clearly leaving it ambiguous, but I think Ana's reading is correct.
Steve,
Good points. I obviously haven't had time to meditate adequately on this work. My impression right now is that the web of relationships and intrigue, matched only perhaps by the London sewer system, is too intricate for a first reader to follow.
But I think your point is that the mystery remains even when we have finished the book. As to the protagonist, he does seem to change his ideas about the inheritance a number of times. But at the same time, he seems fairly scrupulous throughout most of the work--and pretty considerate. Thus the ending seems like a 'diabolus ex machina.'
Yes, the fact that it was 'his grandfather's sword' doesn't mean that his grandfather had killed Lydia's betrothed.
Is it that John has taken on some of the characteristics of the Mompressons at the end? That is, that now he is going to be the lord of the manor, with the wherewithal to put the estate to rights?
Peter was probably not John's biological father. Apart from the fact that in his mother's account ( and that's all we have, so, she may not be telling the whole truth here... ) there's no marriage night consumation time. There's the fact that the Porteouses said something nasty to him about his parentage when they had him locked up in the backroom - something so horrible to him that he refused to write it down for us. There's the people commenting on how much John looks like his grandfather, but not like Peter. There's Peter seeming to be surprised that he has a son, and then killing himself so soon after the revelation. And there's Mom's missing pages. Was it Martin? He did like the younger women, and he did selflessly keep Mary and John alive and well and safe all those years. And Mrs. Fortinquince sure didn't like Mary very much, did she? And the story hints at the double meaning when Mrs. Fortisquince says "I knew the murderer couldn't be your father." Why does John wonder over that line? Maybe he's substituting "Peter" for "murderer". As for THAT murder, I think there's little doubt that it went down the way Escreet re-enacted it. Peter was very much not guilty.
Yep, John's a bit of a worm, one that made sure to wriggle out of that contract with Sukey's brother right away. Now that wealth was a concrete reality for him. I don't think he disproportionately hard on Henrietta though. He was never sure he loved her, and she never came across as entirely in love with him either. Just interested in him because her world was so tiny. and by the end she was downright nutty. I hope she wound up happy ( with David Mompesson? Or stalking him??? ) in Calais.
Yes, it certainly crossed my mind that Martin was the real father, for the reasons you named.
I just thought that Henrietta got a bit of a short shaft. She did need drawing out, though.
I've been puzzled/fascinated by this book for a while now. I think 'uncle' Martin is John H's biological father. This is for all the reasons give by others, plus there is a reference to how similar the older John and Martin looked when they were boys. And there's a Freudian slip in the last sentence of the book, I reckon.
The older John H could have been killed by either Martin or Escreet. I tend to think it was Martin's father and, when Escreet killed Sancious, he was avenging by killing Jemima Fortisquince's (second) husband in return for the actions of the first husband. However, it could have been Escreet.
As for the death of the John Umphraville, I think it was Martin's father. He and his wife were living at the old hall at the time. He is John's grandfather. He is the statue that moved in Mrs Bellflower's account, and his wife took that statue to her new home (John's first home) when he died. John consistently idealises him (because he is his father) but why should such an ideal link up with Jemima?
What do others think?
i also considered martin to be john's father (for all the reasons stated above) but the last sentence of the novel "... where miss lydia's lover had died by my grandfather's sword." refers to jeoffrey huffam who had ordered the murder of j. uphraville rather than to mr. escreet whose hand had done the slaying. so if jeoffrey h. is john's grandafather, then his son, mr escreet must be john's father. this would also explain mary's hate and fear toward escreet, for that must had been a rape.
(excuse my english, i am a foreigner :))
to me it seems that mary's father is also john's father, a particular case of victorian time's incest (see the afterword). That would explain the fact that M. Escreets constantly talks about john's grandfather, while john thinks M. Escreet is just confused in time. to be honest i don't think the author had this possibility in mind, but anyway it is one.
Working on a theory, that may interest you.
You've always wondered about Miss Lydia' s possible baby.
Premise: She had a baby with Umphraville, who was killed, the baby was taken away, that baby was John Huffam Senior,
and given to childless James and Eliza to be a male heir of Jeoffry Huffam. Lydia is JH's great grandmother.
Pro args:
1. Lady Monpesson does mention a sordid affair ch 99
"I presume you never forgave your parents for that scandal....which brought shame and humiliation on them.
I know you are obsessed with revenge I dont know quite what you imagine your parents did, but the truth is that it died"
2. JH thinks ....she was so evasive about a question, because of her Aunts(Anna) connction with her own (tradgedy of baby) ch 99
3. ch 100 JH thinks ....Lydia loved Henrietta "like her lost child" and "for the child she should have had" christening robe for "a child
that did not live to be baptized.
4. ch 99 again Lydia saying "imagine her anguish(anna) her pain and grief, (annas) father and Jeoffry Huffum took the baby from her, and told her it had died.
5. ch 98 JHsr is named after Umpraville, (might it be that it was his son, not his nephew) and thats why Lydia said she
took an interest in JHsr, got him the will, supposedly to save MC from the odious marriage
6. She takes too much of an interest in helping JHsr MC and JH, is it only to right the wrong of the stolen will, or might it be that
she wants her blood to own the estate, that she was deprived of because she was not a boy.
7. Lydia says "His sister...My father ...in short" and stops, Hugo Monpesson (Lydias father) would never have allowed Jeoffry to
give Lydias baby to James and Eliza, unless he was forced to. Might Jeoffry have known about an illicit affair and blackmailed him
into saving himself from a scandal and providing a male heir as James' son...????
8. Lydia says about Umphraville "he died, ahh how many young lives have been blighted by that business and will be" Seems
to me, if there was no one else, then the only lives affected by Umphravilles murder would be his and Lydias. Who else?
She know something, then mentions "and now the Huffan heir is in this house"
9. and finally..same chapter...Lydia says she met JHsr once..."He came to (the Monpessons) ask about things he had been told by an old retainer
of his Grandfather. He had requested him(Monpesson) to tell him about his parents and old Jeoffry Huffam"
Cons: 1. ch 95 Lydia says that JH has no Monpesson blood....but Lydia mentions or frowns upon illicit affairs,
e.g. Wicked Mother of MF, wicked behavior of MF and MC...Anna's affair....
is she going to admit to JH and Henrietta that she conceived a baby before marriage.
2. see 7 in pros.
Just a theory
We will find all answers :
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/gix/quin_fr.htm
Sry still in frecnch but a web slater may help.
Something not on my site : i think Johnnie is born in 1813 and not 1812 as all try to make us believed.
The incest comment above is interesting. If the afterword by Palliser (in the 2nd printing) is staightforward, then a reader made a suggestion to Palliser about John's parentage that shocked and surprised him. That suggests to me the notion that Mary's father committed incest with her, and that John is indeed the child of that act. However, I find it odd that Palliser could be genuinely surprised by this, even if most of his hints point to Martin Fortisquince or, perhaps, Mr Escreet. I read Palliser in the afterword as *continuing* the mystery, rather than genuinely illuminating it! A crucial point in the mystery is that Mary could only have become pregnant on or about her wedding night. We 'know' that Peter Clothier could not be the father (or do we.....), and that it was crucial to the Huffam family that she have a child. Had Mary's father and Fortisquince - in a truly bizarre plot - agreed that one of them must impregnate her when Peter is unexpectedly 'unavailable'?
Hi,
Ran across this page after finishing the book.
Here are some thoughts.
John talks about Martin's mother bringing the statue to the house and that it saved her lover. He also talks about who he suspects her lover to be.
It must be Jeoffry Escreet. Assuming that Martin is indeed John's father, then it all fits in nicely -- Escreet is John's grandfather, who killed Lydia's lover amongst the statues.
What I don't understand is when he gives one of the reasons for not marrying Henrietta as being that he doesn't want to see the estate "tainted" with Mompesson blood. It is he who is tainted wiht Mompesson blood, not her. So perhaps he is saying that he will not pursue the plans to acquire the estate? Then why bring up the issue with Sukey?
Of course, Mary would have the answers to who John's father really was. In the same paragraph where John says that his paternity is doubtful, he brings up "the circumstances of my mother's death". I went back and read that section and apart from the destruction of part of her story, I can't imagine what clues lie there. I can only suppose that perhaps this section revealed who the father was.
I agree that there does not seem to have been time for Peter Clothier to be the father. Martin seems a likely choice; it explains well why he was so kind to Mary, and perhaps why Jemima was so cruel towards her. However, wouldn't have Jemima taken the opportunity to tell John of his illegitimacy? At the very least, she certainly would have used this to her purposes in pursuing the estate.
Wow people, it is really amazing to read what you all think of this magnificent book. I for myself must say I found it hard to follow all the events and understand the several mysteries.
But like Saar and Gary implicated: the fact that John (Palliser) so clearly points out Escreet must be confused, seems to me a big hint/argument for the incest possibility. I can only believe Palliser wants us to consider that possibility. So why does he act surprised? Afraid to reveal it all?
Thanx by the way Gix, I wanna know more so I'm gonna read your website now! Luckily it is easy to get it translated in English, although not everything becomes completely understandable. But I will manage :-)
Probably you are right
Rather a shame about the French site, it doesn't seem to hold any page anymore.
I do agree with Gary that it is strange Palliser would be so shocked by the reader's suggestion he mentioned.
Personally, I suspect Martin Fortisquince. It would be a nice explanation for his care later and the way Mrs. Fortisquince/Sancious treats Mary. She must have found out and hated Mary for it.
I don't have the book in front of me now but in Mary's account didn't the events described in the pages she destroyed precede the wedding night, at least their flight to Hertford? Meaning her night with Martin F. (or her own father?) wasn't necessarily spent at the Blue Dragon, but before? And didn't the Porteous/Clothier family continually put forward that Peter had been duped, or was in a way a sorry victim? As if her pregnancy had been known/suspected? But according to Mr. Nolloth, Peter was grateful (and sure?) that no child had come of their brief marriage, which confirms (or does it?) that the marriage was not consummated, and that at least he did not know of any pregnancy.
A question for Simon Courage above (11 April): who do you mean when you say "Martin's father" if you do not mean Escreet?
A question regarding the French site: Hugo M. had an affair with Eliza U.? I don't read French, but maybe someone can enlighten me? I seemed to have missed that little scandal altogether.
First of all, if Martin is John Jr.'s father why wouldnt the author of ever made that clear? It is never disputed in the actual pages that anyone but Peter is the father, all theories aside.
And if Peter is later "grateful" that no child came of their union....then the possibility is clear a child may have been created, ie, they had sex.
Oh yes, another addition. Fortisquince is Strong Five in latin. Mull that one.
I've just finished this book, and I'd like to contribute something I noticed. When John meets Henrietta in the last chapter could the thing that startles him about her so much be that she's pregnant with Henry's child? This could contribute to why he brushed her off so harshly, and his comment about not wanting to marry her because he didn't want to taint the house with Mompesson blood.
Also, in the continuation of Henrietta's story earlier in the book, it says that she moved in with Miss Quilliam, and they lived together sustaining themselves by needlework until the youngest member of the household dies (the baby). Then Miss Quilliam drops out of the picture, and Henrietta moves to Calais (To live with Sir David?).
Just a thought. I don't have the edition with the afterword, so I don't know if this has been covered.
Henrietta must be pregnant with Sir David's baby. I think Henrietta actually functions as the hero of this novel, if not as its protagonist. She, after all, embodies many of the virtues that Johnnie claims most to admire. Chiefly, she disdains the family intrigue that has brought such ruin to all five of the houses. Her tragedy seems to be that she has acted rashly in a love affair with a heel (Sir David) and that she is abandoned by Johnnie, whom she has perceived as an ally for much of her life.
I think some of the above comments that seem to call for a sequel to this book rather miss the point. Consider where Johnnie finds himself at the end of the novel. He is heir to the Clothier fortune, monies wrung from the poor and the desperate. He has one suit before Chancery, at the urging of the Mompessons' lawyer, and is considering placing the will itself before the court. He believes that Henrietta is unworthy of him because of her arriviste blood.
Most important, he has given up trying to discover any further truths about the past, including the identity of his father. In other words, he has become, by his own ethical standards, utterly compromised.
Palliser is offering, I believe, a critique of the Dickens novel in the guise of an homage. Dickens' characters arrive at their inheritances or homes with their goodness intact. Not so Johnnie Huffam (if that is his name). There may be a solution to all the knots in this puzzle, but it matters less than the fact that our leading man has stopped caring.
I like this last take. I recently reread Oliver Twist and John's right (above) - Dickens likes his heroes to remain heroes. But does John Huffam truly no longer care, or is he just worn out? It is not clear in the end that he is going to inherit both estates; he is still undecided. And his comment that he does not want to taint the estate with Mompesson blood could just as well be a reference to his own and not Henrietta's 'arriviste blood' (assuming Martin is his father). I agree that Henrietta retains many of the qualities that Johnnie admires, but I'm not so sure he has himself necessarily lost them. He seems to still be contemplating letting the whole thing go and moving off into (somewhat well-heeled) anonymity - perhaps as a last ditch effort to save just that part of himself? Or am I too much pining for Dickens?
I think Sharon's right that Johnnie Huffam is worn out by the end of this book (and, let's face it, the reader is, too). Perhaps that exhaustion is the endpoint for the bildungsroman aspect of the novel. Maybe the author's point is that adulthood means ambivalence about ethics and principles. After all, Johnnie's position at the end of his story isn't so different from that of, say, Percival Mompesson (before his death). He's reasonably comfortable; he has inherited a plausible claim to some kind of fortune, but it's unclear how it's going to work out; and in order to further his claim, he has to suppress some piece of damaging information. In the case of Sir Percival, that is the "new will." For Johnnie, it's his growing suspicion that he is not the legitimate scion of the Huffam line.
But he's still a Huffam. Even if all suspicions are true, he still (albeit in a rather round about fashion) descended from Jeoffrey Huffam. What he really needs to hide is that oh so wobbly claim of his to the Clothier fortune. But regarding the Huffam line - is there really any cause for fear? Good Lord, isn't everyone else who could have possibly stood in his way (save for poor Henrietta) dead by now?
If Johnnie is Martin Fortisquince's son, then he is born out of wedlock, and therefore illegitimate. In that case, we should call him a Fitzhuffam. I have a habit of returning books to the library the second I'm done with them, so I may be forgetting some obvious plot point, but doesn't Fortisquince's widow still have an active claim? My brain is now pretty thoroughly buried in Trollope (and stuck in the 19th century), so I honestly can't remember.
You mean wily Jemima? Yes, she's alive, although the new will nullified her chances as well. (Poor bloodthirsty dear.) You're right about Johnnie - I plumb forgot about that illegitimacy business. I must still be digesting how a woman so hair-pullingly helpless could manage a husband and a lover, and all, it seems, in one night. The only true heiress is Henrietta and, considering the carnage and general nastiness surrounding the Huffam estate, who can blame her for preferring to piddle about Calais with Sir David? (My copy is still on my bookshelf due to a vague (and unrealistic) notion that it deserves a second and more attentive reading, but my brain has moved on as well...)
I've just discovered this interesting discussion. My own impression is that John Huffam's two grandfathers are Escreet and Silas Clothier and that his father is Martin Fortisquince. Does anybody have any enlightening theories on what happened at Charing Cross as opposed to Hertford on the wedding day? And has anybody noticed the multitude of chronological errors throughout the book? By the way, the date of birth of John Huffam was 12 February 1812, the same as .... guess who?
Happy New Year to everybody! I have to correct my last message. The date of birth was 7 February, but the point is still the same. What should be borne in mind in reading this book is that the author strongly hints that there are layers of truth and that what John believes may be subject to revision in the light of subsequent discoveries. At the very end he is giddy at the thought of further complications.
Three things that have always puzzled me a bit:-
(a)What happened at Charing Cross on the wedding day?
(b)Who was really contributing to John's upkeep with the Digweeds?
(c)If Lydia gave the will to Martin Fortisquince to give to John Huffam the elder, how did it return to the possession of the Mompessons?
This novel contrasts strongly with "The Unburied" by Charles Palliser, which has a complicated plot but does allow the reader to reach a satisfactory explanation. "Betrayals", like "The Quincunx" leaves us a bit in the dark.
How do you come to the conclusion that Escreet and Clothier are Johnnie's two grandfathers? You lost me there. It is odd that in all those family links we are never clearly told who Mary's mother was. And who else was born on 12 February? The details are sadly fading from my memory. I think Escreet stabbed Old Huffam just like Jemima said, and I assumed he also, somehow, returned the will as it was in his best interests (didn't the new will nullify his ownership of the house?). With regard to the Digweeds - is it impossible to think that they were supporting him on their own?
Sorry I expressed myself so poorly on 2 January. My point about the grandfathers is that John legally inherited the (worthless) Huffam estate through John senior and Mary, but that his true blood descent from Jeoffrey Huffam was through the latter's illegitimate son Escreet and his illegitimate son Fortisquince. The (substantial) Clothier fortune comes to him from Silas Clothier and his son Peter, who is no blood kin of John. Your point about Mary's own parentage is well made. The other person born on 7 February 1812 was Charles John Huffam Dickens!
Further to my last posting, it seems highly improbable that the Digweeds, who are scraping a very rough living and have been through even worse hardships previously, would have enough ready cash to look after John, who on one occasion is mystified at seeing so much money before them on a table.
You might find it worthwhile to give this book a second read, because some of the issues raised by contributors could change your perceptions. But it is very long, though highly readable. The writer must have a real affinity with 19th century English fiction to have produced it, though he is an American.
You've read it a second time? Oh, hat's off. I'm sure I would read it again with very open eyes, but the size of it is so, well, bloody daunting. I read somewhere that Palliser himself said that everything is there in the book, i.e. he does not leave us hanging. So if it's all in there, here's another thought: the French site claims that John Sr. is the son of Lydia and John Umphraville. Meaning...? I don't know. Could the Mompessons or Lydia or someone from that secretive clan have been supporting Johnnie? I admit, it's a bit of a stretch. Alas, I can't think of anyone in whose interests it would have been to keep the poor chap alive.
I think one can safely assume that this novel will never be dramatised because nobody would be able to put the plot together on screen. As to the interesting suggestion about the true parentage of John Huffam senior, one interesting implication would be that in the duel at Hougham John's great-grandfather was killed by John's grandfather, assuming Escreet was the father of Martin Fortisquince and that the latter was the father of John.
And what do you think of the possibility that John Huffam Sr. is the real father of Johnnie? It would make more sense as to why Mary was so freaked out about her son ever finding out the truth (why oh why did he not ask Helen when he found her all those years later?!). And there are all those references to how similar they look, etc. But...blech.
Here is a list of questions and the most important mysteries of The Quincunx,
that I had hoped I would understand after reading the book the first time.
I had to reread the book to answer them.
1. Who is Johnny's Father?
2. Who are Johnny's Grandfathers?
3. What was in the missing 16 pages of the diary (i.e. Mary's confession) ?
4. What additionally was discussed between John Huffam and Martin Fortisquince, when Fortisquince was trying to dissuade Huffam from marrying Mary to Clothier?
5. Do you have any ideas about Miss Lydia's child, that was taken away?
6. Who killed John Huffam, and who killed Umprahville?
7. When was Johnny born? (Easy question if you know that Wellsley
was the famous Duke of Wellington, who defeated Napolean)!
8. Whose hands touched the Will.
9. Whose hands touched the Codicil.
So. Are you going to tell us? Begging via Internet is so pathetic, but I dare say I might just stoop.
In response to Sharon's question, I should dismiss the possibility entirely because Mary writes in her diary that she could not bear the thought that the father of her child had killed her papa. It they were the same person, she would be making no sense at all.
In response to Michael's questions, these are my guesses.(1)Martin Fortisquince. (2)John Huffam and Jeffrey Escreet. (3)Information about the events leading up to her wedding and events in Charing Cross and Hertford. John could have pretended to burn the pages at Mitre Court because his mother would not have been able to see what he was doing. (4)Possibly an offer by Fortisquince to marry Mary and thus reduce the Clothiers' hold on John Huffam. (5)No, but your suggestion in 2004 was a good one! (6a)Either Escreet or an outsider. I don't see Martin Fortisquince or Peter Clothier as realistic murderers, nor do I think Mary's missing pages would have thrown any light on the question. (6b)Escreet, who openly admitted it. (7) 7 February 1812, the same day as Charles Dickens. But a case for 1813 could just be made because Sir George Rose's legislation did not come into effect until 1813, and Sir Perceval on first seeing him at Hougham remarks on how small John is. But then that leaves the question of what happened to Mary in the year after her wedding. (8) Which will do you mean? Incidentally, I couldn't fathom how John could know the precise date of the 1770 will when he had never seen it and couldn't even be sure of its existence. (9) You would have to spell this question and the last out to me. Escreet was probably instrumental in concealing the codicil and pretending to buy it back at enormous expense. Surely John Huffam Snr and Silas Clothier would have asked questions about who had been holding on to it all those years. There were very few people who could have had knowledge of it or have had any financial interest in it. Another point that bothers me is that Barbellion, an astute lawyer, tells John near the end of the book that the Hougham estate is practically worthless because of all the debts and encumbrances. How is it that a sharp old money man like Silas Clothier with all his sources of information is unaware of the condition of the estate, which would be of no profit to him if he gained possession?
Question 8
1. Jeoffrey Huffam authored it (presumably)
2. Paternoster stole it
3. Hugh Mompesson bought it
4. Augustus and Percival inherited it
5. Lydia stole it
6. Fortisquince unknowingly carried it to John Huffam
7. Escreet sold it back to Percival
8. Johnnie stole it
9. Henry Bellringer steals it and gives it to Escreet
10. Sanctious takes it from Escreet
11. Escreet takes it back and gives it to Jemima
12. Jemima gives it to Johnnie ( who knows why??)
Brian,
In reponse to Clothier not be aware of the worthlessness of the estate, there are these explanations.
1. He coveted the estate for so long, and had the means to rebuild it
2. A mistake by Palliser, of which there are several others
a. The Papers say Bellringer and David were cousins!!! Noone knew of Excreets relationship to the Mompessons!!
b. Johnny later reflects on Barbellion as not being so bad, the cad that hounded his Mother and helped bring her to an untimely death
and there are others
1812 Jan. 9-19 Ciudad Rodrigo
Advowson writes on the Baptism Certificate:
" A fine frosty day, excellent news of the capture of Ciudad Rodrigo by Wellsley..Baptised John, Son of Mary Mellamphy of this parish....."
A couple of comments:
1) Some of the posts above seem confused about the legal definition of legitimacy, which is an important concept to understand in reference to inheritance laws. Babies born to women who are married at the time of the birth, or who were widowed less than nine months prior to the birth, are legitimate regardless of their actual paternity. These children are legally presumed to be the offspring of their mother's husbands, and while this presumption is rebuttable in court, there was no DNA technology in the early 19th century so success was rare. Babies are considered to be legitimate even if the marriage takes place only a few hours before labor starts! Thus Peter was John's legal father under English inheritance laws, and John was neither "born out of wedlock" nor "illegitimate."
2) When John passes through the village of his childhood on his way back to London from his North Country school, he looks up his baptismal record in the church. He notes that it was witnessed by Martin Fortisquince "Godfather and father" and that another "hand" (another person's handwriting) had added "Peter Clothier" after the word "father." This provided a strong indication that Martin was John's biological father well before the book got into the circumstances of Mary's wedding night etc.
I misspoke about the definition of legitimacy. Under English Common Law in the 19th century, a woman had to have been married for at least seven months before her baby was born for the child to be considered legitimate. The Church (canon law) was more liberal, allowing children whose mothers wed shortly before childbirth to be considered legitimate.
Thank you for the comments, Lutraa. In my opinion it would be hard to put forward a convincing case for anybody other than Martin Fortisquince as John's father. The real issue for the main parties in the struggle for the Huffam estate is not legal legitimacy but the existence of evidence (or its lack) to substantiate it. John takes the wise precaution of having the baptismal certificate copied by Mr Advowson because he can forsee its disappearance and even his own identity being called into question at a later date.
In response to Michael's observations, the errors I detected in the book were mainly chronological, but some were in prominent places. The first one is at the very start of chapter 11, which states that Lady Day (25 March) was a little more than two months after the shock visit of Mr Barbellion to John's mother, but chapter 10 clearly relates the visit as occurring before Christmas. Besides palpable errors, there are some problems with the whole chronology of the events in the book. The newspaper report to which you referred gave the dateline as Tuesday 2 December. That would mean Christmas Day in that year would fall on a Thursday. But when John is a servant with the Mompessons Christmas Day falls on a Friday, because Joey tells John that George Digweed had died on a Sunday, two days after Christmas. From this we deduce that it was in 1829, and that John escaped from Brook Street on his eighteenth birthday on 7 February 1830. The death of Henry Bellringer therefore, if we take the newspaper date as correct, occurred in 1834 when Christmas did fall on a Thursday!
With regard then to your (Brian) three questions put forward on 2 January, the third seems to have been explained. At least I'm satisfied with the Michael's explanation that Escreet sold it back to the Mompessons. But can anyone clear the air as to what happened then at Charing Cross/hotel on the wedding night? Are we to assume that everything happened the way it is told (by Peter, by Mary, by Jemima), and that when Martin went to tell Mary they got a little...cuddly? Was that the first and last of their "romance"? Or was there something going on earlier? What confuses me is just how horrified Johnnie was when the doctors in the nuthouse told him who (they believed) his real father to be. I realize we live in different times, but still...
As to the issue regarding who was paying the Digweeds to keep Johnnie, I'm in the dark. I can't even think up a good guess. Anyone else?
Other fun references to the number five in the book:
"Phumphred" (coachman) fumpf = five in German
"Sancious" (AKA Steplight) cinque = five in French and is pronounced somewhat like "sahnk"
I'm sure there are others . . .
In reply to Sharon's questions, I'd say there is more mystery about Charing Cross than about Hertford. My own reading is that Martin Fortisquince seduced Mary Clothier at the Blue Boar in the very same room in which Henrietta Palphramond was seduced by Henry Bellringer many years later. Recurring patterns is the main underlying theme of the novel. But if anybody can provide a coherent account of the murder of John Huffam Snr, I'd certainly read it with interest and post comments. Did you have the impression that John was horrified at his father in the asylum? My feeling was that he was horrified at the poor man's condition, and not at what he might have done. As for the Digweed question, I'm with you in your puzzlement. My surmise is that when the book ends (in 1832?) John is a young man in considerable confusion with no belief that he will ever get to the bottom of the mysteries of his life.
Just to clarify my comment about Johnnie being horrified. I didn't mean when he saw his father, rather when Daniel Clothier and his hired doctor told JH who is real father was. (This was in his cell, I think right before they took him to see Peter, but I could be wrong). He called them liars, and then told the reader it was too horrible even to write down for us. That's what made me wonder. It seemed an extreme reaction to a seduction. Don't you agree?
Oh, and with regard to Charing Cross - I take it you don't buy Jemima's story that it was Escreet? I thought the only doubt there was in Johnnie's own mind, and we know by now that he is often wrong. So couldn't it have very well been just as she said/described? And Barney was nothing more than a red herring of sorts?
It would have been a terrible shock to John to hear it suggested that Peter Clothier was not his real father after he had wondered about the identity of his father for so long and thought he had arrived at the truth. As for the Charing Cross murder, Escreet appears the likeliest suspect, but it is strange that he should deny the deed when he was willing to admit killing Umphraville, and Nolloth in the asylum seems to be of the opinion that it might have been somebody from outside the house. But if we accept that there are recurring patterns in the book, then it would not be out of place for Escreet to kill Umphraville and then John Huffam Snr who might possibly have been Umphraville's son by Lydia. Bear in mind that Jemima Fortisquince did not see the murder done and might, by giving her account, have been trying to goad an old man who was deranged. I consider the murder at Charing Cross to be the biggest mystery in the novel, but many would disagree.
I finished the damned book today. Remarkable construction. Seeing how all readers on the net warned about the complexity of the book, I read it noting every new character and some of the impotant clues in a little book. So I finished the monster understanding more or less all the intrigues, family relationships and illegal children! But it was really too heavy stuf. An overdose of Agatha Christie (the murder of old John Huffam is a "closed chamber"-mystery) and Charles Dickens. How many times have I wished that finally one of his innumerable ennemies would kill that indestructible John Junior! He seemed stronger weed than JR Ewing himself! Didn't you, fellow readers, noticed a taste of cardboard when Palliser kept on fooling around with the characters to obtain the 125 chapters of his story?
Just finished today as well. Holy cow! And I'm a fast reader... One note on Silas Clothier not counting on all the debts of the Estate... isn't it revealed by Mr. Barbellion at the end that Silas has gone about "buying up" the debts related to the Estate. If he had come into ownership the debts would be "owned" by himself--- i.e. nothing. John in inherited the Clothier estate is relatively debt free.
I'm in my second reading of the book, and this time - the first time was some years ago - I have read and re-read sections of Mary's diary several times while going through the rest of the book. The missing pages are supposed to contain a revelation that she is very much ashamed of, but it is strange that in the rest of her story which is quite detailed, there are no clues whatsoever to the missing section. In the first part of the diary this is understandable because she is putting off the difficult part. But in the remainder of the diary, why are there no references to the missing pages? One possibility is that the missing story is less shameful than we think, which would support the seduction-by-Martin story. However, why would it be so terrible for John to read this? Another possibility is that Mary is less innocent than we think and even in her own diary is not always telling the full truth, in other words that she drops the veil just for these few pages and then resumes her innocent victim role? In this respect there are two more clues that something could be terribly wrong with Mary's past: first, the hideous story told by the Porteous family to John jr; second, the remark by the man in Mrs Purviance's house that Mary was not inexperienced when she came in. And finally, when she writes in her last entries that "he should never learn the Truth about me", are we sure that this refers only to her final stay with mrs Purviance?
I've read the novel twice from cover to cover some years ago and have been rereading bits and pieces lately. It's great to find a forum of fellow-enthusiasts!
In response to Erik's post: And let's not forget Silas Clothier's appraisal of Mary as a scheming manipulator who stood to gain by John Huffam's death in Chapter 108. Like Daniel Porteous, Clothier tells Johnnie "something further" about Mary, which Johnnie chooses to suppress in his account (916, US edition). These suppressed remarks may refer to indecent conduct on behalf of Mary (or perhaps even an earlier history of prostitution, as Erik seems to suggest); they can also have bearing on the incestuous encounter with or rape by her father John Huffam of which Johnnie is the product - a possibility hinted at several times throughout the novel.
In response to Lynka's observations, while it is true that Silas Clothier had been buying up debts, you have to recall that the estate is very dilapidated by the end of the book and that no money had been spent on it for years. Also Mr Barbellion admits that the corrupt receivers will plunder it even more and will have administration of it for years. Even if he had succeeded in inheriting the estate, Silas Clothier would have been a nonagenarian by the time it was restored to its former splendour. In response to Erik and Leon, I think it unlikely that Mary Clothier did have a shameful past, because when was her opportunity? She never left her home in Charing Cross until her marriage, and then she had to stay away from London so that she could not be found. The one who does have a shameful past is Miss Quilliam, about whose motivations many questions could be asked. Erik mentions the missing pages of Mary's diary. It could be the case that these might have thrown some light on the murder of her father, something she could not bear to think about because of the consequences for her. Could Martin Fortisquince have told her something unbearable that she did not want anybody else to know? Her shame might not have stemmed from her own actions, but she still wanted to shield her son from it. Hence the tearing out of the pages. I'm pleased this discussion is still going on with some many participating, and I look forward to reading more soon.
I agree with Brian that a shameful history of prostitution on Mary's part is highly unlikely. 'Edward's remark that Mary "knowed the trade. [...] I kin allus tell" (Ch. 48, p. 455 US edition),is the only bit of info we get that may be read as directly supporting that claim. I agree with Brian that it would seem that until her marriage she had little opportunity to do anything even remotely shameful (although his claim that "She never left her home in Charing Cross" is contradicted by Ch. 61, p. 543, where Mary describes her walks through the Charing Cross neigbourhood), but we have to remember that we have only Mary's own word for that. After the wedding/murder night you may be right that "she had to stay away from London so that she could not be found," but not necessarily so: she could be hiding in plain sight, right under the noses of her enemies (as she would do again; remember the different interpretations of the family motto!). And suppose Johnnie is indeed born in 1813 rather than in 1812 (as Michael has suggested above) then that would leave a gap of a year and a half in Mary's life between the murder night and the baptism in Melthorpe, which might have been spent in London. (Do we know when exactly Martin takes Mary to Melthorpe?)
But anyway: I agree that it is unlikely that the missing pages in the diary would have contained a confession of having not once but twice earned her living as a prostitute. I find it much more likely that they contained information about a shameful episode in her life just prior to the wedding/murder night, i.e. the fact that her husband Peter Clothier was not the father of her child. Many pieces of evidence point to Martin Fortisquince, but there is also the much more hideous possibility that it was her own father, John Huffam sr (as Sharon has suggested above and as Palliser in the 'Author's Afterword' to the Penguin edition himself admits is a possible, if unintended, interpretation). Even Brian's point against Sharon that this possibility should be dismissed entirely because Mary writes in her diary that she could not bear the thought that the father of her child had killed her papa does not rule it out entirely, I think. Brian argument is that if "the father of my child" and "my papa" would refer to one and the same person (John Huffam sr.), Mary "would be making no sense at all." But suppose we read the verb 'kill' metaphorically. Mary would then be saying something like: 'The John Huffam who had sex with me (by force?) by doing so has made it impossible for me to regard him as my father, the man I have known and trusted my entire life.' I agree this is perhaps stretching things a bit, but Mary's words here (as elsewhere) are ambiguous enough to allow for the incest-scenario as a possible alternative to the Martin Fortisquince-as-father plot.
Leon's comment has me wondering all over again: could the father be someone other than Martin? Regarding the incenst possibility, I now agree with Brian that it's unlikely, owing to Mary's horror over the father of her child killing her own father. I am no doubt forgetting some details, but was Martin ever a plausible suspect regarding the murder? I recall Peter, Jeffrey Escreet, Barney, even Jemima - but I don't recall any sincere (or noteworthy) doubt of Martin's innocence. After all, it was he who rode quickly to Hertford to tell Mary the news. And in all her writings I never had the impression that she suspected Martin. Quite the contrary; he was just about the only person she trusted. So if she never linked him to her father's murder, who is she talking about in the above-mentioned sentence?
These discussion make me plough through the book once again - and I like it! :)
Let me make my position clear: I think that the plot Palliser has in fact devised (and so cleverly hidden) indeed has Martin Fortisquince as Johnnie's biological father (and, therefore, Jeoffrey Escreet as his grandfather). However, as the man says himself in the 'Author's Afterword': "I see an novel - like anything made for publication - as a structure of possible meanings which the reader is entitled to interpret in any way that is appropriate" (1205, Penguin edition).
This means that the incest scenario with John Huffam sr. as Johnnie's father AND grandfather is one of the many possible alternatives to the solution to the mystery of Johnnie's parentage intended by Palliser when he wrote the novel. As such, it is no more 'correct' than any other solution, provided of course that the arguments presented for it are convincing enough.
With regard to the (related) mystery of the identity of the murderer of John Huffam I am a lot less sure what Palliser's intentions must have been, but here, too, there are sign pointing towards Martin F. There definitely are "sincere (or noteworthy) doubt of Martin's innocence" even if Sharon does not remember them. And Mary DOES suspect Martin; he is not "just about the only person she trusted." In her notebook she writes:
"I never gave up thinking about the mystery of Papa's murder and at the end of that first year - in the December before you were born - there was a terrible reminder of it when two families in the Ratcliffe-highway were slaughtered at night by a man who broke into their houses. I wanted to believe that the person who murdered Papa had not been Peter but someone from outside, and I wondered if it could be the same individual who had carried out those terrible crimes. But the authorities caught the man they believed responsible and he hanged himself before he came to trial, so I could never find out. As time passed I thought of many things. I suspected everybody, everybody. Peter, Mr Escreet, and even ... Oh Johnnie, I could not bear to think that the Father of my child had killed my Papa! I even feared that it was I who was responsible - though all unwittingly - for the murder of my Father and the imprisonment of my husband. That it was not his fault for his passion for me had driven him to it." (575-576, US edition)
To answer Sharon's question who Mary is talking about in the sentence discussed earlier and quoted above: I think she DOES link Martin to the murder precisely by not mentioning him explicitly ("and even ..."), but there is no way of being absolutely sure. The point is that the passage is phrased in such a way that we can never know for sure what she means exactly (and deliberately so, of course, from Palliser's point of view). The incest scenarion cannot be rules out definively for that reason. Notice how, for instance, the sentence "That it was not his fault for his passion for me had driven him to it" can both mean 'That Martin cannot be blamed for killing my father for he did it out of love for me' (or 'That Peter cannot be blamed for killing my father for he did it out of his obsessive passion bordering on insanity') and (when read slightly out of conjunction with the topic of the preceding sentence; but Mary's writing style is often rather incoherent) 'That my father cannot be blamed for raping me for he did it out of his love for me.' (Which is a perverse reading, of course, yet quite appropriate for a young Victorian woman who clearly idolizes her father.)
And come to think of it (now that I'm offering wild interpretations), even that preceding sentence can be read in such a way as to support the incest scenario: "I even feared that it was I who was responsible - though all unwittingly - for the murder of my Father and the imprisonment of my husband" can mean something like 'I let my father rape me and because of that he had to devise a scheme to trap Peter Clothier into marrying me, a scheme that ultimately led to his murder and my husband's incarceration.'
To conclude: I think the most likely and intended (intended by Palliser, that is) father of Johnnie is Martin F., who may also be the murderer of John Huffam (although here I am somewhat less sure of Palliser's intentions). But this should not refrain us from the entertaining activity of coming up with such interesting alternatives such as the incest plot for which a rich and ambiguous text as The Quincunx provides so many great opportunities.
So, does anybody else have an interesting 'overinterpretation' of these central mysteries or any other aspect of the novel? (I noticed a quite hilarious one concerning Sancious and Joey Digweed on that French site http://perso.wanadoo.fr/gix/quinconce/index :) ) I welcome all!
To judge from the most recent postings, I assume that this correspondence is now closed, as newspaper letter pages used to say. Am I right?
Sadly, I suppose so, unless someone can offer a convincing clarification to the above-mentioned mysteries. The Digweed explanations are still most unsatisfying, but I doubt the recent newcomers would have much to say to that.
Let's not close the correspondence just yet; I have just finished rereading the enitire novel and am hooked yet again...
And I think I have solved one of the minor mysteries contained in it - or rather I think I have been able to integrate one of the seemingly coincidental occurrances with the convoluted plot. As we know preciously little in Johnnie's narrative happens by coincidence; every character is somehow implicated in the plot, every meeting performs a function in the grand design. (According to Palliser's intentions; see the 'Author's Afterword' in the Penguin edition.)
With that idea in the back of my head whilst reading the novel for the third time cover to cover it suddenly struck me who 'Lushing' Lizzie really is. Lizzie, to refresh your memory, is the old beggar woman whom Johnnie and Mary meet in Chapter 49, who is with Mary in the last hours of her life, and who after Mary's death robs her corpse of its clothes (Chapter 52). After learning that Johnnie and Mary have rich friends, she goes away with no money and returns some time later with a jug of gin (466, US paperback edition). It seems likely she has contacted an agent of Clothier and has been paid for providing information concerning the whereabouts of Johnnie and Mary and the condition of the latter, since later Clothier and his agents know about Mary's death and the circumstances of her demise (see, for instance, Hinxman's taunts in one of the scenes in the asylum [674, US paperback edition]).
But Lizzie performs a further function in the plot of The Quincunx in that she is also related to several of its main characters, including Johnnie. I can't believe I missed the clues to her true identity during my first two readings (my only excuse is that the main clues are several hundreds of pages apart), but Old Lizzie is of course none other than...
Eliza Umphraville!
(i.e. the sister of John Umphraville, Miss Lydia Mompesson's lover who was killed by Jeoffrey Escreet.)
I'll explain in my next post if you are interested in details and (what is, I think,) irrefutable textual proof, but for now I am just curious to know if other readers have been more quick-witted than I have been...
Much of what I have read here has confirmed my suspicions about JHs parentage, and solved many of my outstanding questions (I particularly like the Lushing Lizzie/Eliza Umphraville twist). But the one thing that continues to baffle me is why Jemima gives up so easily at the very end? She has been particularly tenacious and evil in her pursuit of Johnnie, so why suddenly drop it? The only reason I could think of was that he reminded her of Martin in some way (but I am not convinced...).
Rest assured that we (I assume I speak for most of us) were certainly not more quick-witted than you. Lizzie is Eliza. Well. How about that. I would indeed like to hear more on the subject (i.e. your "irrefutable textual proof"). So what do you think: was Eliza John Sr's mother, or were John U and Lydia his real parents? In other words, does she rob her granddaughter of her clothes, or her great-niece?
And does it bother anyone else that Mary's mother is never, ever mentioned? It strikes me as odd in a book teeming with genealogy that he would leave out such a major character. Or did he??
Thanks to all three of the most recent contributors for reviving this discussion. Though Leon's idea is good and original, I have to express doubts about his Lizzie theory. From my recollection, John's account to her of their predicament would not have provided Lizzie with enough information to recognise John and his mother. It would not have cost much to buy the gin either, as it was cheap in those days. But with reference to the significance of apparently stray characters, I have long wondered about Mr Parminter who offers his assistance to Mary Clothier on her way to the registry office and is rebuffed, to John's puzzlement. Any views on what was in Mary's mind? The man's surname is used as one of the many aliases of John and Mary later in the book.
I finished the book today and I very much liked it. Ofcourse, I was puzzled with some of the loose ends of the story. Fortunately, I found this website.
In my opinion Martin Fortisquince is probably John Jr. 's father, for many of the reasons mentioned by other contributers. I would like to add one thought. In his accounts John describes Martin Fortisquince as unearthly kindhearted. I think it makes much sense that John gives such a positive image of his biological father. It also makes the perfect end to a book about inheritances that in the end the estate is inherited by the illigitimate son (Johnny) of the illigitimate son (Martin Fortisquince) of the illigitimate son (Jeoffrey Escreet) of a Huffam (Jeoffrey) and a Mompesson (Anna).
I also very much liked the position that John finds himself in at the end of the book. Now that he has at last become a member of the old aristocracy, he is starting to loose all the high principles he claimed himself to have. This also explaines the inscription on the statue in chapter CXXV: Et ego in arcadia, which means something like: here it used to be idyllic for me. It shows that Johnny has lost his innocence.
Also interesting is the position of Mr Barbellion. In the end of the book it turns out that whatever the outcomes, he never looses. A rather cynical twist!
At this moment I basically have two questions left.
1. Why does Mrs Fortisquince/Sancious give in so easily at the end of the book?
2. Who is the narrator in the chapters that do not have a first person narrator?
Regarding the second question, a possible answer might be Mr Pentecost of Mr Silverlight, but this is a mere guess.
To Brian,
"I have long wondered about Mr Parminter who offers his assistance to Mary Clothier on her way to the registry office and is rebuffed, to John's puzzlement. Any views on what was in Mary's mind?"
Mary knew that he was trying to pick her up as a prostitute!
Michael Levine's suggestion was the notion that struck me on my first reading of the book, but I am inclined to reject it as Mary was closely accompanied by John at the time, and it was commonly acknowledged that a young child would be an impediment to operating as a prostitute. Remember how Mrs Purviance wanted John out of the way so that 'Marigold' could live at her establishment. Also, according to John, Mr Parminter showed some surprise at Mary's reaction. Would not such a man be used to such reactions from ladies? In reply to Joris, John cannot be described as a member of the old aristocracy. His source of wealth is the Clothier inheritance and the landed estate is deeply entailed and under administration. The inscription is interesting because John realises that his recollection of younger days was faulty, and the reader might wonder how much of his narrative is to be considered in that light. I think the author is telling us that you cannot necessarily take everything as a straight fact, even when there is no deliberate attempt at deception. John will never get to the bottom of the mysteries, because any explanation will raise further questions and problems.
Great that the forum has come back to life again!
To Saskia: I like the Lizzie/Eliza twist, too, especially since it never becomes an explicit revelation and none of the characters seems to be aware of the connection between them (with the possible exception of Mary). To Brian: I am pretty sure that Palliser meant for Lizzie to be Eliza Umphraville; he just made it rather hard for his readers to spot the clues.
I think Lizzie is Eliza because (all quotations from US paperback edition):
1. The obvious connection in the names of both characters (Lizzie as an abbreviated form of Eliza), though not so obvious as to give the secret away immediately. Notice that Lizzie is included in the list of characters (as is the enigmatic Mr. Parminter who is the subject of much interesting discussion and speculation in recent posts here), which means she is of some importance. She is also listed at a safe enough alphabetical distance from Eliza Umphraville so as not to give the game away too easily.
2. Old beggar women having fallen from a more respectable position in a former life and preferably also being secretly related to one of our main characters is a frequently used plot device in 19th century/Victorian fiction and melodrama. In a novel so self-consciously parodying Victorian fiction you just cannot miss out on the opportunity of including that topos.
3. Reasons of dramatic irony.
A delirious Mary cries out "Mamma!" on her death bed and Palliser has Johnnie write that "As if in response, the old woman came across" (Ch. 50, 469). I am not arguing that Mary recognizes Lizzie as her mother (which Lizzie is not), or that Lizzie recognizes Mary as a blood relative; my point is that Palliser uses the literary convention of a character calling out for his/her dead or absent mother while in a delirium just before dying to an ironic effect (if we take Lizzie to be Eliza). Mary calls out for her mother in the company of the best thing she could ask for given the circumstances: someone who is quite possibly her grandmother. (And notice, too, how Mary hereby joins the ranks of the many characters in the novel who confuse generations - the most obvious example being Jeoffrey Escreet in Ch. 87-90.)
If we take Lizzie and Eliza to be one and the same Johnnie's answer to Mrs Lillystone's question (Ch. 52) if there is a relative with his mother's body acquires a nice touch of irony, too. "Not a relative," Johnnie answers her, "An old woman" (481).
It is fitting that in a novel where nearly every character in one way or another has tried or is trying to rob family members of their (supposed) possessions, that Mary's corpse should be robbed by exactly that: a family member (as opposed to a 'stray character' as Brian put it).
4. But, next to all these plot-related reasons (Lizzie being Eliza makes for a 'better,' more tightly constructed plot) there is also the "irrefutable textual proof" I promised earlier. Here is how Lizzie describes her past life to Johnnie and Mary:
"Why, my Guyneys, when Lizzie as a gel she was in high keeping. She kept company at Mother Kelly's in Arlington-street. She was on the Town then. Why she was kept by a baronet's son [...]. She lodged in Bond-street and rode down 'Dilly in her carriage dressed in a silk-gownd, and didn't all the folks stare at handsome Lizzie then! [...] But he died shoreditch for he was foul of the strawberries - the only marks of a baronet that he lived to show, poor devil! - or I might have been a Lady." (465)
Of the antecedents of the Umphravilles we learn next to nothing, and Eliza in particular remains a shadowy figure. Jeoffrey Escreet says he "hardly knew" her (742). Our main source for information about Eliza is Lydia Mompesson, who was once the lover of Eliza's brother John. During Johnnie's third meeting with Miss Lydia she tells him that Jeoffrey Huffam "opposed the marriage of his son, James, to Eliza Umphraville," and whereas on an earlier occasion she did not tell "the whole truth about that" matter, she proceeds to do so now:
"I am afraid, John, that your great-grandfather, James, was a drunken and dissolute spendthrift, although he had great charm. The real reason for my grandfather's [i.e. Jeoffrey Huffam's] opposition to his [James Huffam's] marriage to Eliza Umphraville was that she had been openly kept by him for some years. He had seduced her when she was hardly more than a child, but she was a very fast young woman who had little regard for modesty. Later on, the fact that she had been his concubine was exploited as proof against their ever having married." (868)
O.K., so perhaps this is not irrefutable proof (hey, I was excited about my 'discovery'!...), but it is undeniable that these two stories, although 400 pages apart, nice fit together. So nicely in fact that I think we are intended to conclude that Lizzie and Eliza are one and the same person. We learn from Jemima Fortisquince that James' father Jeoffrey Huffam indeed "had begun to be received at Court and had hopes for a title" (996). We do not learn if he succeeded, I believe, but if he didn't (and remained a prospective Baronet only) Lizzie is simply boasting when she calls James the son of a baronet.
To my mind this clinches the matter of Lizzie/Eliza. Please feel free to disagree violently. :)
I haven't figured out Lizzie/Eliza's exact relationship to Mary. As Sharon rightly remarked she can be either Mary's grandmother (though I don't believe we ever get any evidence that she and James Huffam actually had a child together [John Huffam]), or her great-aunt.
Sharon's point about Mary's mother being so conspicuously absent from the story (about the only thing we learn is that she died when she [Mary] was "very young" [Ch. 61, 543]) has made me wonder how much more ironic Mary's death would be if Lizzie/Eliza actually IS the mother she calls out for in her delirium...
In response to Joris:
Yes, I also think that the Chapters in which Johnnie is not our narrator, are in fact narrated and written by Pentecost and Sliverlight (so that what at first appears as typical Dickensian omniscient narration turns out to be not omniscient, but from the perspective of two of the characters within the narrative world itself - this means of course that their perspective is just as trustworthy or untrustworthy as that of Johnnie's).
In fact, the idea of Pentecost and Silverlight collaboratively writing a book pops up in Ch. 36 of the novel itself (pp. 317-318, US paperback ed.). The Quincunx itself, then, is the proof that Pentecost and Silverlight followed Miss Quilliam's suggestion that they should work together.
"Mr Silverlight could take responsibility for describing the motives of the characters (particularly, of course, in the upper ranks) while you, Mr Pentecost, could concentre your talents upon the elements of plotting and intrigue." (318)
(On the basis of this suggestion you can decide which chapter is narrated by whom, Pentecost or Silverlight.)
By the way: did you notice the system in the division of narrative duties throughout the novel? They follow exactly the "tinctures" (colors) in the pattern of the 'quincunx of quincunxes' on the invitation to the ball to celebrate the marriage of Hugo Mompesson and Alice Huffam Johnnie finds on the dead body of Lydia Mompesson (887, see also 872-877) which helps him to open the hidden safe in the mantlepiece sporting the same design (included at the back of every edition of the novel). Pentecost and Silverlight are represented in the scheme by black bud or petals, Johnnie by white ones, and the other two narrators who get to take center stage for 4 chapters each (Miss Quilliam [Ch. 37-40], Mary [61-65, i.e. 5 chapters] and Jeoffrey Escreet [Ch. 87-90]) by red ones. Every quatrefoil in the design represents one of the 5 books in every one of the 5 parts of the novel. Every petal and every bud represents one of the 5 chapters of each book. If you start with the bud of each quatrefoil the sequence of narrators follows the color scheme exactly. The ambiguous tincture of the bud of the central quatrefoil corresponds to the missing pages in Mary's diary which are at the heart of the central mystery in the novel. As Mr. Silverlight had already said: "In any novel I collaborated upon everything would be part of the whole design down even to the disposition and numbering of the chapters." (318)
Brian, I respectfully disagree on that point. It is quoted somewhere(I'll find out exactly where later) that "a young pretty girl in London need never want" (or something like that)...
And finally, in response to Brian's latest post where he writes that "John will never get to the bottom of the mysteries, because any explanation will raise further questions and problems":
Quite right! And this is also connected to the use of the figure of the quincunx. As a structuring device to bring order and design to Johnnie's life story the quincunx pattern, from our perspective, fails: we do not get final answers and explanations for everything.
Throughout the novel the quincunx pattern, when we encounter it in garden designs, mantle pieces, mosaics etc., has the effect of disorienting and confusing Johnnie, because the center of the design does not hold (as in the pattern of tiles on the floor of the Old Hall "making black and white lozenges like endlessly proliferating and ramifying quincunxes [...] whose centre changed as [Johnnie] advance[s]." [975]) or is actually absent (as in the cenral tree in the quincunx of trees at the Estate). So, rather than offering Johnnie the reassurance of 'patterned-ness' he so desperately wants to find in the events that he gets involved in, the quincunx figure stands metaphorically for the endless deferral of a final solution and the proliferation of possible meanings, stories and interpretations. As Johnnie reflects in the final chapter:
"How much more I knew and understood now than when I had last looked upon this place before our flight to London! And yet there was still so much that was mysterious. I had been told and had overheard so many stories since then - Mrs Belflower's, Miss Quilliam's, my mother's, Mr Escreet's, Miss Lydia's - and had heard so many lies and inconsitencies and distortions and omissions." (1015)
Leon,
Your find about Lizzie is the most intriguing one to be uncovered in a long time.
Lets estimate ages. Escreet, and the Umprhravilles are at marriageable age, lets say around 20, when Umphraville is killed. Escreet is now around 90 (at Marys death), so the toothless old hag could be about that age. No inconsistancy!!!
Michael.....Simply brilliant!!...
Thanks for doing the math, Michael! I hadn't really taken the matter of age into account, but I'm glad your calculations (which are correct) support my thesis.
From Leon:
"It seems likely she has contacted an agent of Clothier and has been paid for providing information concerning the whereabouts of Johnnie and Mary and the condition of the latter, since later Clothier and his agents know about Mary's death and the circumstances of her demise (see, for instance, Hinxman's taunts in one of the scenes in the asylum [674, US paperback edition])."
I dont think that Lizzie conveyed this info to Clothier. After Marys demise, Johnnie had no other place to go, but to Bellringer. He told Henry of his Mothers death, but didnt directly reveal who he himself was, just "John".
We know later, that Bellringer knows all too many people associated with Chancellery and the finance guys like Clothier, and later sells the fake will to Clothier. So I believe Bellringer could have been the one to convey that info to Clothier.
That assumes that Bellringer knew who Johnnie really was. Well he knew that he was on the same farm as Stephan, and its not implausable that Jemima, did have contact with her first husbands nephew, Henry Bellringer.
So my thesis is Lizzie did not contact anyone.
Bellringer deduced that Johnnie was Huffam from info supplied by Jemima.
And Bellringer conveyed this to Clothier.
From recollection, I think the quotation Michael is looking for are the words of one of the women employed in a clothing sweat-shop who wants to console Mary for being unsuccessful in looking for work. Though I don't agree with his interpretation of Mr Parminter, I do agree with his most recent posting about Lizzie in Mitre Court. Two points I want to make to Leon. He says that nearly every character is trying to rob family members. Are we then to speculate that Mrs Popplestone and her son are in some way connected with other characters? Leon also makes excellent points about the quincunx pattern, but it should be pointed out that the pattern is wrecked. The chart at the end of the book shows not five, but six family lines. His explanation of the fivefold narrative (pardon the infelicity of the expression, gentle readers) does illuminate the structure of the book. The author himself wrote in his afterword that readers had failed to appreciate the 5x5x5=125 design of the chapters. A final thought in this posting. Has anybody given much thought to the quotation from Quintilian before the first chapter? Maybe it is more relevant than it looks. What a lot of postings have been written since my question of 29 May, and I was only angry at the stupid advertisements! Hope to read more soon.
I read and reread chapter 29. Parminter gives Mary and Johnnie directions and condolances about being a governess, then offers her, his assistance. Mary cuts it off...and Parminter is seen by Johnnie, looking at them with "an expression...of mild amusement"...not surprise. Like a confident womanizer, who is not used to rejection, but feigns amusement to save face!!!
Tell me what else there could be to this, I dont see a thing!!!
Leon,
Check out Chapter 61, 19th. of December!
Mary's entry in the diary states
"You see, My Grandfather had died when Papa was only a few months old and then his mother died
when he was a small child...".
This kills the theory about Lizzie unless we disregard the accuracy of Mary's knowledge of past events!
I also do not think that Lizzie = Eliza. The reason for this is that Lizzie speaks slang (at least in the Dutch translation I read), which a lady like Eliza would probably not do.
This quote also kills the theory that John Sr. is actually the child of Lydia and John Umpraville, unless Mary believes Lydia to be dead. Of course Mary could just as well think Eliza dead, too, I suppose. Was there ever a third possible mother for John Sr. in the running?
Ah, great! Discussion about my Lizzie-Eliza thesis! :)
In response to Michael: But of course we have to doubt what Mary lets Johnnie know about her family's past! It makes perfect sense that she wouldn't mention her grandmother lived on as a low-life prostitute after her grandfather's death. That is, if she knows about that fact in the first place. For do you think John Huffam Sr. or any other family member would have told her the truth in the first place? We can safely assume that after James' death from a venereal disease in impoverished circumstances, Eliza very soon became dead to her late husband's (extended)family as well and had to take up her old profession.
In response to Joris: But Eliza Umphraville was not a 'lady' at all (except in the sense of 'a lady of the night' of course :)); that was precisely the problem Jeoffrey Huffam had with his son James's marriage to her! Like I said, we know almost nothing about the antecedents of the Umphravilles (Eliza and her brother John), but we do know they were considered not to be of the proper 'stock' to marry into the Huffam and the Mompesson families. They were not gentry. And "wild young" Eliza was working as a "concubine" at that! Also, decades of life in the trade in the slums of London have not done much to improve Lizzie's English either of course... :)
As for Michael's suggestion that it was Bellringer rather than Lizzie who informed Clothier and his henchmen of (the circumstances of) Mary's death: that is a certainly a possibility. But Lizzie's behaviour in Mitre Court is undeniably very suspicious and does require an explanation: she asks Johnnie for money, which he hasn't got either, and after learning that he and Mary have rich friends she hurries off only to returns later that night with a jug of gin for which she must have paid something... Well, perhaps Lizzie got lucky and found herself a customer, even though she must be in her eighties... I'm sure there was a market for that sort of thing :)
In response to Brian: Nah, I don't think Mrs Popplestone and her son are somehow connected to other characters; they merely serve the plot function of speeding up the process of Johnnie and Mary's 'Verelendung' right from the start at their arrival in London. They are just a case of 'bad luck', not part of some conspiracy or even of Clothier's eloborate network of criminals and petty thieves. But feel free to link them up with either; I look forward to any theory underpinned by quotes and valid arguments. It is strange, by the way, that the Popplestones are not listed in the list of characters, whereas other 'walk-on parts' are: Lizzie, for one. And Mr. Parminter (who, I agree with Michael, is quite obviously meant to be a pimp trying to recruit Mary). And there is also Luke, the orphaned street urchin who helps Johnnie to some food in return for the ring Henrietta has given him. And speaking of Luke and his appearance in the list of characters: here we have a likely candidate for yet another seemingly stray character turning out to be somehow sharing a family connection with our hero, if you ask me... The fact that Palliser has Luke explicitly mentioning he does not know who his parents are, right before Johnnie hands him a ring worn by Henrietta's mother Louisa (maiden name unkown, but starting with an 'R') would seem to point us in the direction of the Palphramond family. (Dramatic irony again, and the typically Victorian plot device of a poor orphan coming unwittingly in the possession of a gem that belonged to a dead or long-lost mother.)But I am completely in the dark as to how Luke and Henrietta can possibly be related... Brother and sister perhaps? Did the Mompessons only take in the female Palphramond descendant after their parents' death and did they have the boy sent out for adoption? But why? And what concrete textual evidence do we have? But then again: I probably am way too paranoid a reader when it concerns such seemingly loose ends as a character who features in one scene only - a scene that has no narrative function in the plot at all... This may actually be one of those very few chance meetings in the novel.
Leon,
My thoughts on your suggestions:
1."doubt what Mary lets Johnnie know about her family's past" - I always believed that Mary was confiding that she was kept by Martin in the missing pages of the diary, so its unlikly that she considered her familys past, and not revealing it to Johnnie.
2."That is, if she knows about that fact in the first place." - true , she might be misinformed on this.
3. "Eliza very soon became dead to her late husband's (extended)family " - a definite possibility, after all Mary was a little girl at the time of her Grandmothers death, she could have been told anything.
Sharon,
My proposed thesis regarding Lydia and John Umphraville's stolen child is that it was given to James and Eliza as the Huffam heir by Jeoffrey and the blackmailed Hugo.
Mary would still have believed Eliza was the mother of her father, so her knowledge of her Grandmothers death doesnt change anything about Lydias baby...( I think).
Three more questions:
1. The papers report that "Baronet Flees After Death of Cousin in Duel, later it states "remote connexion". Chap 122, after Bellinger is killed by David Mompesson. How does anyone know that they were cousins? Do they mean the are related thru Bellringer's Aunt Caroline's first marriage to Maliphant???
2. Who did Barney Murder?
3. Why do so many people seem to know that Fortisquince was the Father of Johnnie. Martin seemed to try to keep that under wraps?
Correction regarding how Clothier knew that Mary died!!
ch59: Johnnie recounts his Mothers death to Sam, Barney and Nan.
ch66: Sanctious reveals to Clothier's delight that the Mother but not the son is dead.
Of couse we knew that Barney is Sanctious' main informant and criminal agent.
Turns out I was slightly wrong in my response to Joris: We DO learn something about the Umphravilles' antecedents (from Lydia Mompesson). They are "an ancient land-owning family who had held property in Yorkshire for almost as long as the Huffams, and certainly longer than the Mompessons" (855, US paperback ed.).
So I was wrong in saying that they were not gentry. However, by the time John (did you realize he was "in holy orders"? [855]) and Eliza enter our story, the Umphravilles "had lost most of their land and all of their money, for the father of John and Eliza was a drunkard and a spendthrift who, having driven their mother to an early death, himself died while they were children" (855).
I was right in suggesting that Jeoffrey Huffam "believed that Eliza was not rich or well-born enough to be allied with his family," though (856). And my point that after practically a lifetime on the streets of London Lizzie, born in poverty though descended from an ancient land-owning family, would not speak 'lady-like' still stands of course.
In response to Michael's latest post: whether it was Bellringer or Barney Digweed who informed Clothier of Mary's death - and I'd say after your latest post Barney is the more likely option - you have to take into account that Clothier's henchman Hinxman has told Peter Clothier "often and often enough" what has become of his beloved Mary: "Turned w---- and died mad" (676). (And for "w----" of course read 'whore'.)
Upon hearing these words Johnnie looks at Hinxman's "jeering face" and "[can] not tell if he had spoken merely at hazard" (676). So, it looks like Clothier has been informed about the PRECISE circumstances of Mary's demise. I haven't checked yet, but I think it unlikely Johnnie told these exact circumstances to either Bellringer or Barney.
This means there must have been another link in the chain of information leading from someone in contact with Mary in the last weeks of her life to Clothier and via him to Hinxman... And you have to admit Lizzie fits that bill rather nicely. (She does not know whom she is betraying of course; as a regular of the Rookery at Mitre Court she merely knows that the owner of her 'lodgings' [whom we can infer is Clothier] is looking for a young woman and a boy with connections to people with money. And in Johnnie and Mary she meets a couple fitting that description perfectly...)
Unless of course you think that Hinxman is indeed making it up just to taunt Peter and just happens to be right on the spot.
snip("Mitre Court she merely knows that the owner of her 'lodgings' [whom we can infer is Clothier])
1. Ashburner, I believe is Clothiers rent collector.
2. Its very unclear how much detail Johnnie reveals to Nan and Barney in his "narrative" about his Mothers death(ch 59), but I doubt he mentioned her last occupation and her illness.
However I believe Hinxman was just tormenting Peter with his remarks, although by that time Clothier and thus Hinxman knew that she was dead. Lizzie wouldnt have known that she was a w---- either!
3. I still believe that its still a possibility that Lizzie is Eliza, and that her death was fabricated to the young Mary.
Quoting Leon above:
"We do not learn if he succeeded, I believe, but if he [Jeoffrey] didn't (and remained a prospective Baronet only) Lizzie is simply boasting when she calls James the son of a baronet"
The Son of a Baronet, Lizzie may be referring to, could be Sir Hugo Mompesson, and not James. There are several references to that affair being used as blackmail to take Lydias baby!!!
It looks as if anybody who wants can post irrelevant matter on this site. Have readers and contributors noticed a similar problem elsewhere on the internet? To make a quick point to Leon about his posting of 7 June, it is clear that Hinxman is fond of taunting because he tells Peter that he had committed the murder with an axe, which is so far off the mark that even Peter can contradict him, and then Rookyard tries to say that using a sword made the crime even worse, a statement that is designed to cause even more pain to a man in torment. I think Mr Nolloth offers the view that the purpose of Dr Alabaster's establishment is to drive people mad if they are not already so. There is plenty more I could write on other topics, but time does not allow.
I hate to sound like a broken record, but I am still curious as to just whose money the Digweeds were counting at the table the night Johnnie woke up and saw them. Was someone in fact paying them for his keep, as he for a time suspected? And, if so, who? I can't believe that scene was merely to fill empty space, seeing as how meaningful even the tiniest tidbits seem to be.
You have come back to a big unanswered question, and nobody so far has offered any suggestion. In addition, one might ask how John's escape from Dr Alabaster's establishment was organised, because it shows great ingenuity and worked even though John himself was not in on it. One approach might be to ask which parties had most to gain (or lose) from John's confinement and probable death in the place, but then there is the problem of who had knowledge of the Digweeds, besides their immediate family.
Could I raise a completely different question? Can anybody offer a suggestion as to how Mrs Bissett was contacted before her appearance at the wedding of Henrietta and Henry Bellringer? It is clear she was duped by Bellringer's forgery, but how did he know of her and her whereabouts?
I'm pleased the extraneous advertising has been removed. Somebody must be reading us.
Somebody must be reading us, but few seem to be writing. Purely out of interest, how many contributors have an edition of the book with the inset maps from the 1813 Horwood map of London? As this is a novel with many imponderables, I have wondered why some editions have these interspersed and some have not. One thing is certain though: John Huffam clearly states that the map was published the year after his birth, which confirms he was born in 1812. If anyone has a suggestion about Sharon's last question, I'd be interested to read it.
Sharon and Brian,
I've reread the parts of the book after the rescue from the Asylum very carefully. Johnnie is very suspicious of the Digweed's motives. He mentions the costs of his stay, maybe 5 or six times. Eventually he starts to believe that he was wrong, after his relationships with all the Digweeds show themselves to be most trustworthy. Mrs. Digweed treats him as a mother, because of her obligation to Mary in Melthorpe. George risks his life and freedom and gives up his life assisting Johnnie, and Joey, finally admits all his wrongdoing, and becomes Johnnies most trusted associate later, at Bellringers and Henriettas wedding.
There also doesnt seeem to be anyone who would have any contact with the Digweeds, except for Barney and they hate him since he cheated them.
All of the people out to do Johnnie harm, Clothiers, Mompessons, Sanctious, Fortiquince, Barbellian, Bellringer, and Barney, all have no connection to the Digweeds.
The money they were counting, could easily be and most likely was, the nightly take from the "shores".
Im sorry, but I'm satisfied that there is nothing in this theory.
Brian,
"Can anybody offer a suggestion as to how Mrs Bissett was contacted before her appearance at the wedding of Henrietta and Henry Bellringer? It is clear she was duped by Bellringer's forgery, but how did he know of her and her whereabouts?"
Mompessons-Barbellion-Bisset
Thomas or David Mompesson might have asked Barbellion, (their Lawyer) if he knew of a Chaperone(or whatever they call it) in the area. Barbellion already had Bisset on the payroll, earlier in the book!
I finished 'The Quincunx' on Sunday and have read this site with interest. I tend to believe everything I read, and so the last chapter came as a total shock. I had, however, worked out about Martin Fortisquince being the father. I also reckon he was the murderer of John senior. He was presumably in love with Mary, and wanted to pin the murder on Peter.
The minor question that is puzzling me concerns Pentecost. I agree that he is one of the author's of the book (the 'hidden sixth' refered to in the author's afterword). However, in Mary's diary, it appears that he has died in debtors' prison. Also, Mary changes her opinion of him, but without any explanation why. Does anyone have any theories?
Also, in the author's afterword is a suggestion that John is a blood relation to the Digweeds, but I haven't worked out how.
A response to the last of Ben's points. When John has a look at the old Huffam memorial in the churchyard, one of the families mentioned on it is Feverfew. George Digweed later tells John of a relative of his who was an excellent sculptor, and his name was Feverfew. Thus John and the Digweeds could well be distantly related. A comment on the 'hidden sixth' - my understanding was that it refers to the illegitimate line through Escreet and Fortisquince that breaks the quincunx pattern, but the quincunx pattern does underly the 'authorship' of the chapters, so I would not dismiss his notion. If Ben gives the novel another read, he will probably modify some of his original impressions. For instance, I doubt if many of those contributing to this discussion would select Fortisquince as the likeliest murderer of John Huffam senior, though a case could be made out. This book is not one to be read just once, but it is interesting to hear what the first time reader thinks. I've mulled over many of the problems in its plot and construction without coming to any definite conclusion, other than that solutions will raise further difficulties, and that, like John himself, the reader will never get to the bottom of it.
In the shower this morning, I had a thought about who is paying the Digweeds to keep John (if anyone). Could it be Jemima? It is in her interests that Silas dies before John. She has close connections to Sancious, who has close connections to Barney, who has close connections to the Digweeds. Therefore, she will want to see John rescued from the asylum, and Sancious will know that John has gone to the asylum, because Clothier will have told him.
The rescue from the asylum is one of the few events that seems like a genuine coincidence. Not in the rescue per se, but the details. Isn't it a little convenient that Mrs. Digweed happens to be skilled at laying corpses out and is employed at exactly the same time that Peter Clothier has died? Or am I missing something.
I also have a theory about Mr. Parminter, who I bookmarked when reading, thinking "He will be important later on". In Palliser's notes at the end, he comments that the book was about twice its published length on first draft. Perhaps Parminter did have a role to play in the excluded narrative, and had to be sacrificed in the final version. The character had to be kept in though, as John later takes his name to hire a room. Otherwise, the meeting strikes of a false significance. I know this is a fairly rubbish explanation, but is the best I can come up with.
If I may bring up another thread . . .
One of the things that comes up again and again in the novel in "hazard". Along those lines, there are references to playing only with loaded dice (though a different term is used for that) The fortune was originally lost in a game by that name. Mary's mother tells her son that she chose a particular surname at hazard. I elieve there may have been other such references.
Another pattern: the woman pregnant with one man's child marrying another one that she does not get to live with. What happened to Mary reoccurs in Henrietta's case, which could be a reason why John drops her (in addition to the Victorian idea of not being able to love a woman who was not pure). She says, "He seduced me," which could refer to Henry, but also to David. He's the one she seems most attached to. But if she already knew she was pregnant, she may have had reasons of her own to marry Henry than his apparent (and very sudden) feeling for her.
That is a parallel to Mary and Peter. Perhaps old Clothier is right that she duped him, for she could not marry the father her child (Martin had already married Jemima). And of course that would explain why Clothier is so ruthless about the boy listed as his own grandson.
On a sep. issue: I can't grasp what motive Sanctious would have besides money. He seems to have no family vendetta issue like the other characters do.
Another observation: the novel has some hints of anti-Semitisim, which is, admittedly consistent with its Dickensian orientation. The Jews appear as the stereotyped pawnbrokers.
I recall one sentence that suggests that the arch-villain of the novel -- Silas Clothier -- is of Jewish extraction. There was a reference to a name change from Abraham (or some derivative of that name -- I don't have the novel in front of me).
Thank you to Ben for the suggestion about who is paying the Digweeds for John's keep. It seems improbable to me that the Digweeds have much money to live on, because the toshing business seems to be precarious. And another thank you for the suggestion about Mr Parminter, who makes a fleeting appearance and yet appears in the list of characters at the back. If he is simply trying to pick Mary up as a prostitute, it seems strange that he is listed. In regard to Ariella's last point, there is no doubt at all that Silas Clothier is Jewish. Both Mr Sancious and Mr Escreet make it clear, and the former takes Clothier aback by remarking on his 'Christian fortitude'. But I don't see any anti-Semitism in the novel, nor can I see Clothier as the arch-villain, because it is clear that he does believe he has some claim to the estate, and that he has been cheated. He is by no means the only one to want John Huffam dead.
Ive mentioned several times about the circumstantial evidence that leads me to believe that Lydia is John Huffam Sr's. real Mother and that Umphraville was the father, before he was killed by Escreet.....
Here is something new I found!
In chapter 99, Lydia offers Johnnie some money to assist with his aspirations with laying the suppressed will to the courts...
she says over Johnnie's objections after he says "I cannot accept it", she responds "Yes you can, for Henrietta's sake, if not your own. And for mine and John Umphravilles's".
Umphraville's ancient name is pulled out of the air once again!!
I am more and more convinced that she is assisting John Huffams Sr and Jr, with reclaiming their estate, because she is Huffam's Mother, and not simply for fairness and discord with the Mompessons!
Michael's view has something to recommend it, as it would fit in well with the other strands of the novel. If John Umphraville is the true father of John Huffam Snr, then he is the true great-grandfather of John Huffam Jnr, and therefore in the duel at Hougham the latter's great-grandfather was killed by his grandfather, which most would agree Mr Escreet to be. It would tie up well if we knew Mr Escreet to be the murderer of John Huffam Snr, but the mystery of that death is probably the biggest problem in understanding the book. Incidentally, how does John Jnr know the exact date of the 1770 will which he wishes to establish? He has certainly never seen it, and cannot be absolutely certain that it is still in existence.
Hi Brian,
We know that Johnnie comes to the conclusion that Escreet killed Huffam Sr. Johnnie says in chapter 122 after Escreet kills Sanctious..."..for by his action Escreet had surely confessed to the murder( of Huffam) in a manner more impossible to retract than any words".
Johnnie also says in the last chapter when reflecting on his relationship with Henrietta...
"...if I was not the son of a man who had committed murder (Peter Clothier).....then I was at least the grandson of one (Escreet)"
Im convinced that all the murders were done by Escreet!!!
Escreet probably was the murderer, but he denies it at a time when lying will not do him any good, and Mr Nolloth seems to incline to the view that it might have been committed by somebody from outside the house. John's conclusions are not always the only ones that can be reached, as the author himself remarked in his Afterword. It is one of the attractions of the novel that some of the neat conclusions can be questioned. Michael's last quotation is open to more than one interpretation, depending on which names one fits into (Michael's) brackets.
A quincunx was also a very popular machine in the time the novel is describing: see wikipedia:
For Sir Francis Galton's machine for demonstrating the normal distribution named "quincunx", see bean machine.
This machine gives a mathematical explanation on patterns or chance. A beam may go left or right 50% chance. So with the novel there are more solutions to solve the murderers...
Design or chance is also a recurring theme in the book!!!
To add to the last posting, the observations made are borne out by the quotation from Quintilian before the first chapter, which says that whichever way you look at a quincunx, it is the right way up.
A new enquirer arrives!
The descent of Johnnie from Escreet via Martin is persuasive. I would also like to think that John Huffam is the son of Lydia and Umphraville, because then every one of Johnnie's male forbears would than also be illegitimate. That is a delightfully ironic comment on Victorian fiction. But the argument/evidence for this is surely thin: can someone summarise what I have missed here.
Escreeet is indeed central to the story, being the pivot of much birth. death and deceipt. His murder of John Huffam (convincingly mirrored, despite his denials, in the murder of Sancious) follows precisely the pattern of his murder of Umphraville.
There is, however, one aspect of that earlier murder that I cannot follow. Lydia must have known Escreet well - they are about the same age and lived in the same place. But on p1010 (UK edition) she says: "I saw [the killer of Umpraville's] face full in the moonlight. I did not recognize him. I am sure I would have known him if I had ever seen him ..... most of all I was struck by the expression. I have never forgotten it: such a terrible picture of suffering on such a young face." What is all that about? And why the emphasis on the suffering?
Just got back from two weeks in Brittany having galloped breathlessly through the Quincunx, swept away by the breadth of the detail, plot density and all the other reasons that are evidenced by the compelling posts above. I'm going to re-read the darned thing, beginning next week, and this time pay attention! In the meantime, due to my passion for geometric shapes and their relevance to everyday lives, I'd like to make a suggestion about the complex web of relationships between almost all of the characters in the book. The shape of a quincunx allows it to be symmetrical and 'true' whichever way up you view it - but is there a name for a 3D quincunx? That is, a cube with eight dots at the corners with a central point? In the accursed 'Afterword' (which I'm beginning to regret ever having read now!) the author refers to the attraction of some kind of 'empty centre', like the burnt pages of Mary's journal. With so many apparent coincidences, and with so many ways of viewing the central issue, I suspect that a 3D quincunx would be a helpful way of analysing the plot. One could place any of the major themes in the book at the very centre and rotate away to one's heart's content - themes such as trust, hazard, parentage, charity, and so on. I've tried not to forget that the author is playing with us throughout the entire piece - abiding by the conventions of the Victorian novel (where coincidence would be seen as Divine Providence and much enjoyed by the audience) while teasing us with the flavours of almost-incomplete and half-hinted modern prose. I would love to imagine holding a transparent cube, spinning it in my hands, reading the central point differently through each of the six faces; where one face would be through a traditional Victorian glass and yet another through a modern glaze; and yet others through a mix of perspectives.
Many thanks for all the provocative thoughts, very helpful for first-time readers like myself. I shall follow with interest...
Interesting debate.
It seems to me that Martin Fortisquince as John's father is as near certain as anything is in this novel. Here's another piece of textual evidence that I don't think has yet been cited in this discussion. Up until the point of the missing pages in Mary's account, she refers to Fortisquince as 'Uncle Martin'. After the missing pages, presumably containing Mary's confession regarding John's father, Fortisquince is referred to by Mary simply as 'Martin'. No more 'Uncle'.
Also, regarding the theory of Escreet as Martin Fortisquince's father - Lydia says, of Martin Fortisquince's mother: 'She and her husband were estranged a few months after the events I am speaking of and that is when she went to Melthorpe. It was suspected that she knew something of the stanger (ie Escreet). In short, that...And she believed the statue saved his life. But never mind.'
What is Lydia about to say when she stops herself? That Fortisquince's mother and Escreet were having/had had an affair?
I'm glad the discussion is still going, it's a fascinating puzzle of a book.
I agree that Escreet is Martin's father and that Martin is Johnnie's father, although it's not quite clear when Johnnie was conceived. Possibly a detailed timeline of the events in the book would make that clearer - has anyone constructed one?
The main mystery to me is who killed Mary's father. The events of the night of the murder are described by
Martin (as reported second-hand in Mary's journal)
Peter (as reported second-hand by Nolloth)
Peter (directly to Johnnie)
Jemima (overheard by Johnnie)
Escreet (or at least he comments on Jemima's description)
The accounts vary somewhat, but what seems clear is that Peter received the package from Escreet, and at that point the blood-soaked money must have been in the package. This must mean that Mary's father was already dead, Escreet knew it, and was trying to frame Peter.
But Escreet claims to Jemima that he didn't commit the murder, and Jemima admits to Johnnie that she was only guessing about what happened.
She says something like "bluntly, I never believed that your father was the murderer", and I can only make sense of "bluntly" if she is referring to Martin. She saw Peter and knows he didn't do it, but she couldn't see what Martin and Escreet were doing.
I tend to believe that Escreet didn't (directly) commit the murder, but I think he must have planned it. He payed someone (Barney?) to do it, but was double-crossed and attacked as well by the murderer, who then took the will back to the Mompessons. Because otherwise, I can't see why Escreet would have wanted the will to leave his possession ("where it belongs").
Another question I have is why Martin married Jemima? Was it simply that she wanted to marry a lawyer with some means, in order to be able to pursue her own interest in the Chancery case?
John was born Feb7, 1812 same as Dickens...the year is known because of Advowsons entry on the Baptism certificate about the victory by Lord Wellsley!
See notes above!
I agree wholeheartedly with Chris that the murder of John Huffam senior is the biggest mystery in the book. The notion that it was planned by Escreet and carried out by Barney is plausible, and I think Escreet's denial of having committed the deed when he had nothing much to lose by admitting it might be accepted as true. As to when John junior was conceived, I should be inclined to go for the evening when Martin Fortisquince came to the Blue Dragon from London to see her with tidings of Peter. If he seduced her then it would be mirrored well by the later seduction of Henrietta by Henry Bellringer in the very same room. The novel abounds with repetitions. The matter of a timeline is a tricky one because there are very few definite dates in the narrative, and many incomplete ones. If you want a guess, John was born in 1812 and the novel ends in 1832 or 1833. For those who read French, there is a detailed, and in my view erroneous timechart on http://perso.wanadoo.fr/gix/quin-personnages.htm and a huge amount of discussion and dissection of the plot. Some of the material on the site is based on false assumptions, one of them being that John was born in 1813. The arguments put forward for this view cite John's small stature and also that Sir George Rose's Act establishing procedures for registration of births was passed in 1812 and did not come into force till 1813. The argument for 1812 is much stronger, as mentioned by Michael Levine and myself.
Brian - regarding Martin's fatherhood of Jonnnie (forgive me for being well behind in the detailed discussion) something jumped out at me towards the end. Bottom of page 1083 (end of third para in Chapter 111) he expresses his frustration that 'English mercantile life was a vast system of uncles, nephews, friends and neighbours from which I was excluded.' I understand now that due to his rather vague paternity, he would prefer to use 'uncles and nephews' as his primary reference to family ties, when 'father and son' would have been more natural. Perhaps only a fragment of evidence but I'm warming to the idea of Martin being his father. It's not entirely clear when Peter and Mary could have conceived anyway, is it? Chris - could Martin have sought to cover the indignity of his liaison with Mary by marrying Jemima and distancing himself from the whole episode? His conscience wouldn't let him rest, so he continued to support Mary, as catalogued through the early part of the text.
It's a pain having to try to recall details, without a full re-reading - isn't it?
I'm glad to see we're getting some discussion going!
On the subject of Johnnie's conception, I've been re-reading Mary's journal account of what happened.
Mary states that her marriage was on May 05, and given that Johnnie was born on Feb 07 of the following year, I think that rules out any affair between Martin and Mary before the wedding leading to the conception.
Also, I don't think Martin seduced her in Hertford - her description of that night doesn't leave any time for it, and in any case when she wrote this passage in the journal she'd already written about how Johnnie was conceived (in the pages she later ripped out), so there was no need to try and conceal it here.
I think it must have happened when Martin set her up in the cottage in Melthorpe, where she says "... he escorted me there and made me mistress of the house ... and we gave out that I had been recently widowed and that Martin was my late husband's Father. Thank heavens I have already told you about all of this and need not go into it again"
I think this implies that Martin was living there with Mary, otherwise why have to explain that Martin was "my late husband's Father"?
Brian: I think you are mistaken about Henry Bellringer seducing Henrietta at Hertford. The way I read it, Henrietta had already had an affair with David Mompesson, and it's his child she bears, not Henry's. There is various textual evidence for this, e.g. Henrietta says (about Henry) "He said that David's engagement showed how little he cared!", which Johnnie misunderstands. And also, she goes to live in Calais in the end, where David went into exile.
There is annoying lack of dates and ages ( of people) in this novel. I kept guessing as to the age of the principal characters when I first read this book. On the subsequent reading I am trying to pay more attention to this and again, it seems as though, the lack of this information is deliberatem and yet there are some clues to figuring ages and dates out only if you are paying very close attention.
I believe Johnnie to be 5 years old at the start of the novel, Mary 22 ?? Any thoughts?
deb, just look at the diary entries, and the note above on his birthdate...Feb 7, 1812
In response to Deb's observations of 18 September, I'd say that there are a few clues sprinkled about, but they need research. Ch 9, p 89 (U.K. paperback edition 1990) mentions sovereigns and half-sovereigns, reintroduced in 1817, which might indicate that the meeting with Mr Barbellion in the churchyard was on 20 December 1819, and that Martin Fortisquince died the previous day. Mary's diary entry reveals that the Digweeds came to Melthorpe on 24 December 1822, when John and Joey were ten. From my reading of the text, I'd have to say there are a few places where references to events don't seem to match up. I could certainly give you a few from my latest reading of the novel, but out of courtesy I'd have to ask whether you want page numbers from the U.K. 1990 paperback edition (£8.99) or the U.S. 1990 hardback edition ($25). I know there is also a U.K. hardback and there may well be a U.S. paperback. My guess is that John is five and Mary is in her mid-to-late twenties at the start.
Just a quick note to say that after reading some of the previous postings I have discovered that there is a U.S. paperback edition and that the page numbers do not correspond to the U.K. one.
Yes please, Brian! I'd certainly be interested in your views on references to real-world events that do not match the timeline of the fictional world of the novel. And what about [who was it]'s suggestion on this forum that Johnnie wasn't born in 1812 but in 1813 (this had something to do with Sir George Rose's Act not being passed until late 1812, or something like that...)?
There is indeed a US paperback edition (1990, Ballantine; compact and very cheap), but I think the UK paperback edition (1990, Penguin; with the Afterword) is the one most widely used.
In response to Leon's posting of 24 October, I did not want to give the impression that real-world events do not match the events in the novel; on the contrary, the historical background seems very well researched indeed. What I meant was that there are occasions when what is written is at odds with other parts of the text. I'll cite instances by chapter number, then U.K. paperback page, and then U.S. hardback page.
Ch.11/97/65 - the very first words are in conflict with the very end of ch.10, which must have been at least three months previous, and not two, Lady Day being 25 March.
Ch.11/99/67 - though it is only a few days after Lady Day and still March, Sukey refers to the fetch in the burying-ground 'the Christmas a-fore last', or fifteen months previously, and then refers to 'this Christmas jist gone by'.
Ch.18/132/87 - Mrs Digweed says that she and Joey started their journey from Stoniton on the day previously, but Mary expresses surprise that they should have covered twenty miles in one day.
Ch.25/195/127 - The Farmer takes Mary and John north from Sutton Valancy to Gainsborough, which is about 145 miles from London, but the milestone on the turnpike near Hougham, which must be a good distance south of Gainsborough, shows the distance to London as 151. I'd like to hear any opinions as to where Stoniton and Sutton Valancy are.
The instances cited are all from the first part, the Huffams. When I've worked through the Mompessons, I'll add a few more.
Just in case anybody is still reading this, I am now adding to the discrepancies noted on 26 October. All are from part two, the Mompessons.
Ch 27/212/140 - the Golden Cross was a famous coaching inn, mentioned by Dickens, but it did not serve routes to the North of England.
Ch 32/256/171 - Smithfield is quite a distance from Regent Street for a hackney-coach to travel. How long would it have taken to go so far?
Ch 32/270/179 - how does John have the section of the map showing Bethnal Green when he has previously stated that he took only the central area from his box before the Popplestones stole John and Mary's property?
Ch 36/341/226 - Mary drinks Cream o' the Valley, but earlier the gin was termed the Out-and-Outer. Maybe the latter is a colloquial term for the former.
Ch 41/404/266 - Mr Acehand is guilty of some exaggeration when he speaks of seeing Peter Clothier with his father 'nigh on twenty years agone'. The year is 1825.
Ch 42/426/278 - to run from Miss Quilliam's in Orchard Street to Giltspur Street is an amazing achievement.
Ch 44/464/304 - Stephen says that Mrs Fortisquince came to see him in Canterbury the previous Christmas, but must mean the one before that, because it is now 30 July 1825, and John and Mary visited Golden Square on 26 December 1823 to be told Mrs Fortisquince had gone to Canterbury.
Ch 48/508/333 - Sir George Rose's Act did not come into force until 1813, and so there would have been no separate register. Obviously this touches on the question of John's date of birth, which has been discussed previously.
I am still reading this, Brian!
In response to Brian’s two previous posts: I have also been struck by the temporal inconsistencies in Johnnie’s narrative, particularly those having to do with the ‘confused Christmas’ in the first part of the novel that he notes. Johnnie’s citation of Sukey’s reference to the meeting with Mr Barbellion in the graveyard as having occurred the Christmas “a-fore last” (Ch 11, 87/99), while Johnnie’s narrative is very clear that this must be last Christmas, is indeed puzzling. (References here and below to Chapter number, US pocket edition issued by Ballantine [NOT their paperback edition]/UK paperback edition)
Gathering from the hints Johnnie drops us, I think Brian in his post of October 22 is correct in dating the meeting with Barbellion as 20 December. In Ch. 7 Johnnie tells us of “Late one morning a few days before Christmas” (Ch 7, 69/ 79) when Mrs Belflower tells him the final part of her story of how (in Johnnie’s words) “the Mompessons stole the land from the Huffam family by deceit” (Ch 7, 70/79) while he helps her to prepare the Christmas pudding. In Ch. 8 and 9, which describe the afternoon of the same day, we learn the exact date: it is the eve of St. Thomas’s day, i.e. 20 December (Ch 8 74/84; Ch 9, 77/87). (St. Thomas the Apostle’s feast day was 21 December until the revision of the General Roman Calendar of 1969, when it was officially changed to July 3.)
However, the dates later supplied by Mary in her journal (Ch 61, first relation, 542/625-626) are inconsistent with Johnnie’s account of the events. Mary dates the quarrel she has with Johnnie after Barbellion’s visit to the cottage not on December 20 (as Johnnie would have it), but on December 18. And it is on the morning of December 19 (and not on the morning of 21 December, as Johnnie’s account states) that she learns of Martin Fortisquince’s death. (So, more internal inconsistencies there… Any thoughts on their significance, anyone, assuming they are not mistakes on the part of Palliser?)
But now for the more important matter of the years in which these events from Johnnie’s early childhood in Melthorpe take place. Throughout Johnnie’s narrative we never know for sure what year it is (or how old he is, for that matter). It is not until we learn the contents of Mary’s journal that we can establish dates and years to certain events. The very first two entries fix the year of Barbellion’s visit as 1819 (Ch 61, 542/625).
Let’s follow Mary in ascribing Barbellion’s visit to 1819 and track the events as described in Johnnie’s narrative from that moment (Ch 7-10) up to that other important visit to the Mellamphy household around Christmas-time, that of Maggie and Joey Digweed (Ch 18-19):
• In Ch. 7 Johnnie explicitly lets us know that the pudding he assists Mrs Belflower in making a few days before Christmas 1819 is intended “not, of course, for that festival but for the following year”. He adds in parentheses that “In fact, we were destined for the first time in my life to eat that pudding without her.” (Ch 7, 69/79) This means that next year’s Christmas will be the first one without Mrs Belflower, which, according to the year of 1819 given in Mary’s journal must be 1820.
• Mrs Belflower leaves the household on 25 March 1820, and it must therefore be the Christmas of 1820 that Johnnie describes briefly in Ch. 18. as the “bleak first Christmas without Mrs Belflower’s cheerful good-nature and excellent fare” (Ch 18, 110/126).
• Meanwhile, “a few weeks after Mrs Belflower had gone” (Ch 17, 107/122), i.e. sometime in April 1820, Mary has purchased shares in the stock of the Consolidated Metropolitan Building Company on the advice of Mr Sancious. From Mary’s diary we learn the exact date: April 12 (Ch 61, second relation, 546/629).
• “In the late Spring of the new year” following the Christmas Johnnie describes in Ch. 18 as the first without Mrs Belflower – i.e. in Spring 1821 – Mr Sancious writes to Mary that there will be “a slight delay in the completion of the contract” (Ch 18, 110/126). Johnnie remarks that the delay turns out to be more than slight for “the months passed without Mr Sancious finding himself able to give my mother a firm date by which a return could be expected” even though “the following Spring” – i.e. Spring 1822 – will mark the end of the two years his mother’s investment was originally to have matured (Ch 18, 110/126). This is consistent with the earlier established year of 1820.
• The Summer of 1821 is uneventful, save for Johnnie’s fight with the village boys who are torturing a cat (Ch 18, 110-111/127-128).
• There is no news from Mr Sancious until a letter arrives on 24 December 1821 (Ch 18, 112/129)…
• … and it is on that very same day in Johnnie’s account that the Digweeds find shelter in the cottage (Ch 18, 113/130).
Ergo: the Christmas of the Digweed’s visit is, in Johnnie’s version of events, the second Christmas without Mrs Belflower.
Mary, however, records the arrival of the Digweeds as taking place at “Christmas-day, 1822” (Ch 61, 549/626), i.e. one year later than Johnnie. This, then, would be not the second, but the third Belflower-less Christmas – if, by Mary’s own account, we take the first one to be that of 1820 (since Mary dates the Fortisquince’s death as 1819). In Mary’s journal there are three years between Barbellion’s visit and Fortisquince’s death on the one hand and the ‘chance’ meeting with the Digweeds on the other. In Johnnie’s version these events are separated by just two years. This means that there would appear to be a whole year missing in Johnnie’s account of his early life (if we take Mary’s journal to be correct, that is)!
This leaves us with the following questions:
• Could Palliser really have been this sloppy? Or should we read Sukey’s words in Ch. 11 – “Do you mind that fetch as we seen in the buryin’-ground the Christmas a-fore last” (Ch 11, 87/99) – as an accidental slip of Johnnie’s pen deliberately ‘planted’ by Palliser in a rather obvious way to alert us that something is wrong in Johnnie’s apparently straightforward narrative? (The second option seems the more interesting and attractive one, of course…)
• If so, is Johnnie confused himself or is he deliberately confusing us? If he is deliberately confusing us, what can he be trying to cover up? It seems obvious (to me at least) that this has some bearing on the question of Johnnie’s real year of birth, as discussed earlier and as touched upon by Brian in his latest post. Has Johnnie been lied to about his year of birth all his early life by Mary? Is the entry in Advowson’s register deliberately post-dated or ante-dated by year? Why would Johnnie want to appear a year younger than he in fact is? (I’ll try and share my thoughts on this subject with you in one of my next posts.)
• Should we trust Mary’s journal as far as the dates of her entries are concerned, as I have done here? If not, for what reason should she post- or ante-date entries in a journal meant for Johnnie to read?
And then there is the other ‘confused Christmas’ noted by Brian in his post of 12 November: Stephen Bellringer remarks (according to Johnnie) that Jemima Fortisquince visited him (Stephen) in Canterbury “at Christmas last year” (Ch. 44, 404/464), which by Johnnie’s own account must mean the second Christmas he (Johnnie) and Mary spent in London; i.e. the one they passed in the company of Helen Quilliam (Ch. 36, 319/365). Jemima’s journey to Canterbury, however, is dated by Johnny as having occurred “a few days before” his and Mary’s first Christmas in London (Ch. 32, 215/246). According to Mary’s journal the first visit to Jemima after the arrival in London takes place on September 22 of what must be 1823 (Ch 63, 558/643); the second visit around Christmas-time when Mary and Johnnie find Jemima absent since she is visiting Stephen in Canterbury is not recorded in the journal, but must have occurred in the same year, if we go by Johnnie’s account.
Any thoughts on what to make of this inconsistency, anyone?
Thanks to Leon for his detailed response to my postings. The matter of the two confused Christmases is possibly even obscurer than we might think. To take the case of Sukey first, if her father died on Norfolk Island, then news would be more likely to take fifteen months than three to travel. In the case of Stephen, considering the harsh conditions of the Quigg's establishment, would he have lived over a year? What Sukey and Stephen say is contrary to other details of the narrative but is nevertheless inherently more plausible.
Despite what I have written so far, I believe the non-chronological discrepancies are more telling than the chronological ones, and when I have posted my notes on part three, the Clothiers, you may see why. This is the first time I have read the novel noting down discrepancies as I have spotted them but my vague recollection is that they occur throughout, and it is hard to believe that they are due to negligence.
On the topic of the year of birth of John Huffam, last year I posted a comment on a French site on which the consensus seemed to be that John was born in 1813. I stated the case for 1812, and was treated to a withering riposte. But what was most interesting was that somebody had written to the author on that particular topic and had received a reply in English seeming to express surprise that the question was raised. Quite likely the French readers were unaware of the date of birth of Charles Dickens. Unfortunately I cannot find any trace of the site now. There is another French site which is informative, but has lost an interesting timeline which related events in the novel to calendar years.
Any comments on any of the above will be appreciated, and I hope to post my notes on part three soon.
Just a quick response to keep the conversation going:
I never even checked where exactly Norfolk Island is (I have only not being British as an excuse for this lacuna in my geographical knowledge; I was naively thinking of an island near the Norfolk coast.) Given its location in the Pacific Ocean fifteen months indeed seems a more plausible period of time for news of her father's death to reach Sukey in Melthorpe than a mere three. This, of course, only strengthens the case of a missing year in Johnnie's narrative.
Looking forward to your comments on the non-chronological discrepancies, Brian, and I hope that by non-chronological you mean the geographical ones in particular. Let's assume none of the discrepancies are due to negligence or slip-ups, but, by contrast, are deliberate hints at a real but secret history behind Johnnie's story.
Concerning Johnnie's year of birth: if Johnnie is born in 1812 (as Advowson’s reference to Wellesly’s capture of Cuidad Roderique suggests [Ch 48, 440/…], as do the other references to real-world events – the Radcliffe Highway murders of 1811 [Ch 2, 19/20; Ch 64, 575/663, the Great Comet of 1811 [Ch 92, 764/885]) then why should his baptism be recorded by Advowson as the very first entry in a new, separate register, according to Sir George Rose’s Act, which came into force in January 1813? Are we absolutely sure the Act came into force in 1813, as a previous contributor to this forum has claimed?
The only French site that I am able to find is at http://perso.orange.fr/gix/quinconce/index. Its author, too, is convinced Johnnie was born in 1813 even though he is aware of Charles Dickens' date of birth. There is also an interesting timeline, which begs some questions.
As promised earlier this week, here is list of apparent discrepancies from part three, The Clothiers. First of all, I'd like to confirm that the legislation about parochial registers was definitely passed in 1812, and I doubt if it could have applied to February of that year. As before, the references are to chapter/ U.K. paperback/ U.S. hardback.
Ch 52/556/367 - the cart would only have needed to travel a very short distance indeed from Mitre Court to Holborn. The narrative implies a journey of some length, whereas it would have been possible to walk from Mitre Court to the burial ground in under five minutes. Some months ago I enquired generally whether other editions of the novel besides the U.K. paperback contain the inset maps, because I think they have relevance. A glance at the map for Holborn will show what I mean. Incidentally, Mitre Court still exists and is now called Ely Court.
52/560/369 - did John really have fourpence halfpenny left? Not by my reckoning!
53/562/370 - if John was going from Mitre Court to Coleman Street, why should he make his way through Soho, which is well over a mile in the opposite direction? But was it Coleman Street in any case? John never spoke to Miss Quilliam at Coleman Street, but at Gough Square. But that is very close to Mitre Court, and certainly would not have required a walk through Soho. To my mind, this is the biggest and most blatant discrepancy so far.
54/563/371 - Fig Tree Court was actually situated in the Inner Temple and not in Barnard's Inn, according to the index of the 1813 map. There was another one at the Barbican, but I don't think that one relevant. These three errors about places so close together must be significant, but what inferences can be drawn?
55/571/376 - as mentioned before in postings, the date of Mary's first relation, 18 December, appears to be slightly wrong.
61/625/411 - same as last note.
63/649/426 - Mary and Peter's wedding day was 5 May 1811 and was celebrated in a church. But could a church wedding have been on a Sunday, as this date was?
68/699/459 - Barney's gang's robbery at the gaming hell took place on 17 December, if we allow for it being brought forward a week in order to forestall Pulvertaft. Therefore John made his escape early on 18 December. But the porter at Barnard's Inn tells John that the day is a Thursday, which, to my reckoning, makes the date Thursday 22 December 1825. The narrative doesn't indicate that four days had elapsed.
69/703/461 - Joey asks John if he has been sleeping out 'these last few nights'. If it is Christmas Eve, where have the days gone in John's account? Joey has been trailing him all the time.
70/712/467 - there is no mention of John using the surname Cavander, nor any indication as to when he might have needed it as an alias.
70/714/468 - if Mary died on 12 November, is it likely that her corpse would have collected and buried the next day when 13 November 1825 was a Sunday? Mr Limpenny says that it is the regular burying day. Unless the year is not 1825, there must be something amiss here.
70/724/474 - Mr Gildersleeve says that John and Mrs Fortisquince were introduced 'some three years ago', not very accurately if the date is now January 1826, because they met in September 1823, just after John and his mother arrived in London. But this may be an instance of vagueness on the lawyer's part.
72/734/481 - 'those terrible nights at Mitre Court a few months before' is inaccurate because it is now January and John's stay at Mitre Court was in November.
A possible reason for some of the inconsistencies in John's account is hinted at in 59/599/394 where his reference to the present occupier of the gang's house shows that he is writing a good few years after the events.
There are more comments I have to offer in addition to what I posted previously, but it doesn't look as if this site is being read by anybody except Leon. The recent irrelevancies don't inspire confidence either.
Yeah, where did everybody go? I'll post something more substantial very soon, Brian.
To my knowledge all editions and translations of the novel have the maps inserted at the start of each part showing locations relevant to the narrative for the chapters to come. The maps, then, do not just play a part in Johnnie’s narrative; they are part of the formal structuring of the text in 5 parts, 25 books, and 125 chapters. Just like the family trees – which to a certain degree are questionable when compared to the alternative interpretations the text of Johnnie’s narrative offers – the maps raise questions regarding the accuracy and trustworthiness of Johnnie’s story. Other than that, I have no idea what to make of most of the geographical inconsistencies you point out, Brian.
(On a related point: We may wonder why the maps of Spitalfields and Bethnal Green have been placed so prominently in the collaborative (auto)biographical account that Johnnie, Pentecost and Silverlight have produced. In some editions both maps are in the front, in others both are in the back, in yet others the Spitalfields map is in front and the Bethnal Green map is in the back. And what of Johnnie's off-hand remark that at the time of writing he passes "quite frequently" the "large and imposing mansion" that once served as the HQ of Barney Digweed and his gang and is now occupied by "the Earl of N------" (Ch 59, 519; all references to US pocket edition)? Should we take this to imply that Johnnie lives in the Bethnal Green neighbourhood?)
(And speaking of geographical inconsistencies: What do we make of the confusion that surrounds the lay-out of the park at the Huffam/Mompesson estate?)
However, I am struck in particular by one of the temporal inconsistency Brian mentions: Peter and Mary’s wedding day (5 May 1811)being a Sunday. In 1811 May 5 was indeed a Sunday (see http://www.hf.rim.or.jp/~kaji/cal/cal.cgi?1811), which is curious - and not just for the reasons Brian mentions. 5 May 1811 may have been a Sunday IRL, from Johnnie’s account we gather a different day altogether:
Lydia Mompesson tells Johnnie she decided to steal the will during one of Martin Fortisquince's annual courtesy visits to the Mompessons when he tells of John Huffam's intention of marrying Mary to one of the sons of Silas Clothier:
"I decided that very instant that I would regain that document […] from the possession of my nevy. […] I knew that Perceval and his wife would be abroad the following Monday, so I decided that on that day I would go into his closet and force the drawer (Ch 95, 834)."
During that same visit Lydia manages to speak to Fortisquince in private. Johnnie immediately guesses her plan: "And you told Mr Fortisquince to come that day and receive a gift to give to my grandfather!" Lydia acknowledges that this was indeed her design but wonders how Johnnie knows all this. He explains "how Mr Nolloth had recounted […] Peter Clothier’s story of the events of that fatal day" (Ch 95, 834). The problem is, of course, that "that fatal day" cannot have been a Monday...
However, Mr Nolloth's version indeed does correspond to Miss Lydia's in that theft, exchange and wedding occur on one and the same day:
"You grandfather [John Huffam] had secret conference of your father [Peter Clothier] and Mr Escreet and told them of the promise that had been made [by Lydia Mompesson to obtain Jeoffrey Huffam’s second will] – though he did not identify the individual in the Mompessons’ confidence. He explained that his unknown helper had proposed using Mr Fortisquince as the unwitting agent to convey the document from the Mompesson’s house to himself. The intention was that the will would be removed from Sir Perceval’s safe place on the morning of the wedding and would immediately be placed by the unknown party in the hands of Mr Fortisquince who would be told that it was a gift for your grandfather and should be given to him that very day. Mr Fortisquince, having no idea of the significance of what he bore, would bring it to the house that evening. So it was in order to provide Mr Fortisquince with a reason for coming to the house that your grandfather invited him and his wife to the wedding-feast." (Ch 78, 668)
The trouble with this version of events is not only that it impossibly dates the wedding night (and therefore the theft and the exchange of the will via Fortisquince) on a Monday, but that this version of the events (a) implies a very narrow time-frame, which, moreover, (b)is not corroborated by the 'evidence' from Mary's journal:
ad (a)
Note that in Miss Lydia's version of events there cannot have been more than a week between her learning of Mary’s circumstances and the day of the theft of the will - an act meant to prevent that forced marriage. Lydia learns from Fortisquince that Mary will have to marry a man she detests and conceives to steal the will "the following Monday," which implies that Fortisquince’s courtesy visit took place on the Monday preceding the Monday Lydia has in mind at the earliest. This limited time-frame dictates she should immediately write to John Huffam with her plan, stipulating the date of the theft and the method of exchange via Martin Fortisquince. It also dictates that John Huffam, upon receiving Lydia’s letter, should promptly announce himself quite happy with the wedding plans of Mary and Peter, and arrange the ceremony on the date stipulated by Lydia. This leaves several questions unanswered:
-- Does Lydia Mompesson know John Huffam has planned his daughter's wedding on the same day as the theft in order to have an excuse to invite Fortisquince over (as Mr Nolloth's words may imply)?
-- Does Lydia Mompesson know that Mary will not marry a man whom she detests (Daniel Clothier), but rather his brother whom she appears to love (Peter Clothier)? If Lydia does, then she acts out of mere revenge against her own family in stealing the will and not out of altruistic motives (i.e. pitying yet another young woman being forced into a marriage, just like her aunt Anna and she herself). But how can Lydia have known of Mary marrying Peter rather than Daniel? Martin Fortisquince cannot have told her, for he does not know who Peter will be the groom until the wedding dinner. If Lydia knew, the information must have come from her correspondence with John Huffam.
ad (b)
However, in the version of events as described by Mary in her journal, events unfold very differently from the hurried one-week-scenario described above:
• During dinner a couple of days after the clash between John Huffam, Silas Clothier and Mary described in Mary’s fourth relation in Ch 61 (see 555) John Huffam receives the letter from Lydia Mompesson offering him the will.
• "For the next three weeks" (Ch 61; fifth relation, 557) John Huffam keeps Clothier dangling with false promises of bringing the codicil before the court.
• Around that time, Peter Clothier manages to secretly visit Mary to warn her and John Huffam of the Clothier plot against them. Mary sees him being followed by the man Johnnie will com to know as Hinxman. The evening after that (Ch 63, 559) Silas Clothier visits in order to pump John Huffam about the marriage of James Huffam and Eliza Umphraville.
• "Late one evening a week later" (Ch 63, 560) Peter escapes from his brother’s house and finds refuge at the Huffams.
• In "the period that followed" Peter and Mary are "brought much together by circumstances" and discover that their feelings towards one another are the same. The writ of lunacy is issued, and Peter has to overcome much scruples before he is able to ask Mary to marry him. Mary accepts and they break the news to John who declares himself "delighted" (Ch 63, 562). John arranges for the ceremony to take place "a week tomorrow" (Ch 63, 562), suggesting that this scene occurred on 27 April.
In Mary’s version of events, then, there is a considerable amount of time separating the receipt of Lydia’s letter and the wedding – at least a month, if not five or six weeks!
Mary's account of Martin Fortisquince’s movements in the days preceding the wedding, too, is at odds with the events as narrated by Lydia and Mr Nolloth. Fortisquince makes two visits to Brook Street: (1) the 'courtesy visit', (2) the 'exchange visit' during which he unwittingly smuggles the stolen will out of the house. According to Mary during the dinner Martin says:
"I was at Brook-street two days ago where I found the whole house upside down. I will tell you why so far as I understand it. But first, that reminds me, John, that I have brought…"(Ch 63, 563)
If Martin means that this visit to Brook Street two days ago was his annual courtesy visit (and if he does not mention the exchange visit earlier that same day of May 5), then why was the house upside down for reasons unclear to him? If Martin’s assertion that he was in the house in Brook Street two days ago for the exchange visit (his courtesy visit having occurred more than two days ago) this would explain why the house was upside down for reasons unclear to Martin (the theft is discovered almost immediately in this case), but raises the question of why Lydia Mompesson and/or John Huffam have changed their plan(s). Why let Fortisquince have possession of the will for two days?
Above all, all of this makes me wonder whose version of events is correct, and if Mary's isn't, then why is she not telling Johnnie the truth?
I was delighted to find this thread on the same day that I finished reading this excellent, haunting and thought-provoking novel. Don't know if this forum is still active, but thought I would toss in a couple of questions/observations anyway.
I'm pretty convinced that Johnnie's father was Martin F. although there are some pretty broad hints that his father may have been John Huffam Snr, particularly during Mary's delirium immediately before her death. She addresses her Papa, and then goes on to say something like "Why do I need a husband? We're happy as we are". In addition she doesn't seem terribly attached to Martin and her sorrow when he dies is more the sorrow of someone who's lost a friend than a lover. I don't really know what I'm arguing here. I just really love how the mystery seems to have no definitive answer, just a bunch of equally plausible possibilities.
When would Johnnie have been conceived? The book implies that it was in the Halfmoon room at the Blue Dragon inn in Hertford, and Mary's narrative suggests that Martin F. is the father. If Mary got pregnant on her wedding night (but not by her husband) and was therefore not pregnant before, how exactly can Silas Clothier suggest that Peter Clothier was "duped" into marrying her?
Does anyone have any light to shed on the story of the duel amongst the statues as told by the Mellamphys' cook whose name I've forgotten? I'm sure other people here know the book better than me and it seemed to me that her version of it did not square with the official family tree at all. For one thing, in her version Lady Lydia is in love with a Huffam (I forget the Christian name), not John Umphraville!
Finally, how much does Johnnie himself actually know and what isn't he telling us? Can he really be ignorant of the fact that Henrietta is in love with Sir David, not Bellringer? Why can he not bring himself to acknowledge this possibility? Seems to me that Johnnie has pretty much come to terms with the fact that his father is Martin F.
Sorry to interrupt the recent flow of interesting postings with some more notes on discrepancies in the fourth part, the Palphramonds. Recent relevant postings have raised some deep questions, and I have to regret that what I am about to write is more likely to darken than to clarify, because I am not answering any points made but simply continuing my list. As previously, references are to chapters/U.K. paperback/U.S hardback.
Ch 83/809/530 - if Joey stuck to John for two or three days after he left the Neat Houses, it would not account for the whole period up to Christmas Eve.
86/841/551 - the reference to the middle of May right at the beginning of the chapter is blatantly wrong because the escape from the asylum was in the winter, February 1826. This error is strongly reminiscent of the one at the very start of ch. 11, which might make the reader wonder what the narratives are conveying. Leon has written extensively on similar points.
86/844/553 - the reference 'exactly four years ago' corroborates that it is May 1828 as the stay with the Isbisters was in the Spring of 1824. This is not a discrepancy, but from now on there are several contradictory indications as to the current year.
86/850/557 - John did not in fact drive any hard bargain for his share of the toshing earnings. He accepted George Digweed's reasonable apportionment.
92/889/582 - the reference to Miss Quilliam's early morning return to the Mompesson's house as 'almost five years ago' indicates it is early to mid-1828.
93/895/586 - moonset on 23 June 1829 was at 11.24 in the morning, which would mean a moonless night, but suddenly we seem to have a discrepancy of a year. Leon has mentioned this sort of 'slippage' previously.
93/906/592 - it would have taken time to go from Mount Street to Wapping and back. Then Joey went to Bethnal Green and came back with Isbister's horse and cart, all by noon! Mr Digweed might have been hidden in Mount Street by 4 a.m. but could Joey have done all that travelling in eight hours or so?
94/942/616 - Mrs Peppercorn says she saw John at Hougham over ten years previously, before the visit of Mr Barbellion, which indicates it is now late 1829.
95/956/624 - 'five or six years since we last met'. If it is Christmas Day 1829, it must be over six.
95/961/627 - how could John have known the exact date of the 1770 will? A really glaring discrepancy. Previous mentions of John Huffam's final illness would lead one to believe that he died in the Spring, but the will is dated 18th June. Possibly it could be argued that technically the season extends to the solstice.
95/971/634 - why would Joey have gone to see John on Christmas Day when it was not a Sunday?
97/976/637 - John and Mr Nolloth did not in fact come to any conclusion about the murder of John Huffam, though Mr Nolloth had definite ideas which he did not have a chance to expand.
97/978/638 - if John Huffam died 'almost exactly sixty years ago' then the year must be 1830.
97/981/640 - John escaped from the asylum early in 1826, so four years have elapsed, and there cannot be two to go before he is assumed dead. This is assuming that an action to have him declared dead was started in 1826. Silas Clothier would not have allowed time to elapse.
98/993/648 - a minor point, but the American hardback edition shows Amelia's husband as John Palphramond in the genealogy when it should be Roger.
99/1004/655 - in February 1830 the first Sunday was the 7th, which is the day John made his escape from the house. Of course, in 1829 the first Sunday was the 1st, which makes sense, but see the next note.
99/1024/667 - Mr Digweed died on Sunday 27th December, which must have been in 1829, and that in turn makes the present year 1830!
100/1026/669 - the visit of Mary to Brook Street when accompanied by the bailiff is mentioned by Bob as 'three or four year back, one summer', which seems to mean the Summer of 1825. But that clashes with supposition that the date is February 1830 and fits in with 1829.
These notes, as I stated at the beginning, add to the confusion about chronology. I hope to finish with discrepancies in the final part, the Maliphants, which I shall post before Christmas.
I find all this discussion most fascinating! But I think we need to recall that some of these inconsistencies may be introduced by Palliser - and put into the mouths of his characters - simply to prevent readers being able to pin down events and places with certainty; his world is after all an invented one, not a fact-certain one. And it's convincing to have characters with different memories of sequences of events, of locations, and of relationships. Can you recall with certainty the date and location of your great-aunt's wedding, and the name of her sister-in-law? I know I can't; and, even if I said I could, I'm sure my third cousin would have an entirely different recollection!
This leads me to think that Palliser is wrapping a couple of real mysteries - e.g., just who is John's father - inside puzzles that don't matter.
And maybe this further disguises some other possible lines of speculation - for instance, are we 100% certain that John is in fact Mary's son? If it's crucial (but exactly to whom?) that the Huffams have an heir - John - but Mary's new husband - Peter - is snatched away before the union can be consummated, then either Mary is impregnated by someone else (Martin, her own Father, Mr Escreet....) or she rears a young 'introduced' baby as if it were her own.....
AGB
In response to AGB: I'd say that many of the temporal inconsistencies Brian is so meticulously cataloguing are not so much "puzzles that don't matter", but are directly connected with the "real mysteries". It matters a great deal, for instance, that the year of Henry Bellringer's death implied in Johnnie's narrative (either 1829 or 1830 - we're not even sure about that!) is inconsistent with the date mentioned in the newspaper article read by Jeoffrey Escreet in Ch. 122. December 2 was a Tuesday in 1828, not in 1829 or 1830 (see http://www.hf.rim.or.jp/~kaji/cal/index.html).
I do agree with you that we should not read too much in vague references such as "five or six years ago" - these indeed mainly serve the purpose of preventing the verisimilitude of Palliser's story from evaporating. What indeed could be more unrealistic than characters having perfect recollection of events having occurred years or even decades ago? It is therefore precisely when characters in Johnnie's narrative DO remember dates with precision - Lydia Mompesson mentioning a Monday as the day of the theft of the will, for instance (see my earlier post)- that we should pay close attention. Not because all these inconsistencies will eventually point us to the solution to the "real mysteries", mind you, but because they allow for a proliferation of possible answers. Like Ziggy (30 November) I, too, "just really love how the mystery seems to have no definitive answer, just a bunch of equally plausible possibilities."
And one of these possibilities (opened up by the uncertainty surrounding the year of Johnnie's birth and the year of the events in the present of his narrative) is that we cannot ever be 100% sure whether Johnnie is in fact Mary's son or an 'adopted' baby, as AGB suggests. Following that line of thought (and entering the field of wild speculation) I would suggest the Digweeds as Johnnie's biological parents. Martin Fortisquince must have known that family from his days at the estate and could therefore have provided Mary with one of their offspring. And have you noticed how Joey Digweed's eyes have the same color as Peter Clothier's? (Palliser makes sure Johnnie mentions the eye-color of both characters several times.) Could Martin Fortisquince have exchanged the child Mary conceived with Peter out of wedlock for an infant untainted with Clothier blood and given the Digweeds the Huffam-Clothier heir born to Mary? (Probably impossible to corroborate with textual evidence, but an entertaining idea nevertheless.)
(And speaking of eye-color and blood-relations: have you noticed that Johnnie describes the eyes of both Barney Digweed and Lydia Mompesson as strikingly blue, not to mention the fact that Barney seems to share the high-domed head of the Mompessons... Food for thought, I'd say, especially since there are those nagging questions concerning the ultimate fate of Lydia Mompesson's child with John Umphraville...)
Agreed that there are mysteries that almost certainly admit of no one solution (so, though biology dictates that Johnny must be the son of one specific individual, it's possible that neither he nor we - nor maybe Mary! - can ever know who.....).
So I wonder whether, instead of following the clues and mystery-clues as to who did what, when and to whom (which I nevertheless enjoy), we could take a step back, and ask some Why? and Who Benefits? questions. Some of these questions are very simple to ask - but I confess that, over many years, I've been puzzled to answer them.
Why does Mary inherit almost nothing at all from her father? Who - apart from Johnny himself - benefits from his being the Huffam heir? Why does Mary do almost nothing at all to advance Johnny's (and indeed her own) claim? If Johnny eventually comes into 'his' inheritance (and I'm not 100% sure he does), then how did he prove his claim? (and I'll re-read the book soon, looking at the questions I've scribbled in the margin of my battered old copy!).
On my speculation that Johnny is not Mary's son, I of course have to say that there's not a jot of 'evidence' that he isn't. And there's plenty that he is (not least in the writing of Mary's maternal instincts and behaviors). But I've just got this feeling that it is very strongly in the interests of someone other than Mary that there is a Huffam heir to John Snr - and that Mary is, to some considerable extent - just a dupe. But whom, exactly?
AGB
Just to clarify - I don't at all suggest that detailed 'discrepancy' posts above lack worth - just the opposite. I'm just wondering whether the questions we're asking in relation to the discrepancies are necessarily the right questions. Palliser's sleight-of-hand may be as much to hide the question, and to obscure the answer...
AGB
Good to see the real discussion has displaced the irrelevant postings at last. Thank you to Leon and AGB for commenting on my lists of discrepancies. I'd like to make two quick points; namely, that not all of them are to do with chronology, and that many of them, like the vague references to times, occur in very prominent positions in the narrative. If the author spent twelve years in writing the novel it is unlikely that many of them are genuine oversights. In another of his novels, 'Betrayals', there is a great deal of humorous treatment of deconstruction and texts yielding their meanings, and I can't help wondering whether we are being teased a bit by the author. Another (totally irrelevant) matter I'd like to point out is the author's fondness for Christmas. There are plenty of references in this novel, and this may be a fondness he shares with Dickens. The excellent novel, 'The Unburied' is compressed into the short period of late afternoon, Tuesday 20 December to early morning, Saturday 24 December.
39 irrelevant messages all on the same day! I'm hoping to post my final list of discrepancies later this week, but in the meantime I'll just say that a good while ago somebody pointed out that there were a few names in the book that had suggestions of 'five' in them. Well, 'pump' as in Pumphred is the Welsh for 'five' and 'cuig', pronounced nearly the same as Quigg is the Irish for 'five'. Not that I know what to make of it, but at least it is something to do with the book.
Apologetic correction to my posting mentioning Phumphred's name and the connection with five. Firstly I got his name wrong and secondly discovered that somebody had already pointed out the similarity to the German word for five. We've been treated to eight more irrelevant postings in the last two days. Does anybody have any explanation for people bothering to write all that stuff? I hope to post something more interesting tomorrow, and maybe that will be my last contribution because it will take me to the end of the book.
Just to break the run of nineteen intrusive and irrelevant postings, here is my list of discrepancies and observations on chronology for the last part, the Maliphants. The references follow the same scheme as before.
Ch 102/1046/683 - 7 February was a Sunday in 1830, and so the description of the people in the streets given would indicate that the year is not 1830.
103/1047/683 - Henry had last seen John at the court hearing in January 1826, but John states it was about two years previously. Irrespective of what the year is now, it is impossible to compress John's committal to the asylum, his escape, his stay with the Digweeds, the attempted burglary at Brook Street, and his employment there into two years.
110/1082/706 - John could not have had £47 left. Lydia had given him £51, Vamplew had taken £2 and Joey had spent £4.
111/1085/710 - Mrs Purviance's servant was Betsy, and not Nancy, who worked for Mrs Malatratt in Coleman Street.
113/1103/722 - John absconded 'nearly four years ago'. This seems to indicate it is late 1829 as it is late autumn or early winter in the same year as Silas Clothier died.
118/1116/732 - If Lady Mompesson last saw John more than six years ago in the summer of 1823 at Hougham, then 1829 is indicated.
119/1125/737 - If John passed through Hougham in 1825 on his way back from Yorkshire, Mr Advowson's reference to 'three or four years ago' indicates 1828 or 1829.
119/1127/738 - Not a discrepancy this time. 'The elopement of my great-grandparents' could be taken as referring to John Umphraville and Lydia. Notice the wording is 'the wedding' and not 'their wedding'. Evidence that Lydia might be John's great-grandmother?
120/1132/742 - How far away was the old house? Could John have seen it 'about a mile away' in the gloom?
120/1133/742 - If the elopement was sixty years previously, the year would be 1829.
122/1159/760 - Why is Henry Bellringer described as the cousin and remote connexion of David Mompesson? How could the reporter have knowledge of their affinity? The dateline Tuesday 2 December would fit either 1828 or 1834, neither of which is plausible.
122/1165/764 - If, as Jemima Fortisquince makes out, Escreet saw the document for the first time for thirty years in May 1811, what significance would 1781 have had when Jeoffrey Huffam had died in 1770?
122/1166/765 - 'Nearly sixty years before'. The duel was in 1769, which points to 1829 or 1828 as the year. If Escreet possessed a bundle of bank-notes, was he better off than he seemed?
125/1179/773 - If the house in Melthorpe had been empty six or seven years, the year would be 1829 or 1830.
125/1180/774 - It is significant that the inscription on the statue in the garden is different from what John was certain of. I take this as a strong hint that besides all the prevarications, lies, omissions and concealments in the accounts given in the novel, there are some genuine errors of memory occurring when characters believe they are telling the exact truth.
125/1184/776 - 'Nearly eighteen months ago' is wrong. The death of Silas Clothier was in early February and it is now only June of the following year.
125/1189/780 - The first meeting with Henrietta was more than ten years previously, in the summer of 1819, which means it cannot be earlier than June 1829.
My calculation when I reached the end of the Palphramonds was that it was now 7 February 1830, and that John was eighteen when he escaped from Brook Street, but nothing in the final part bears that out. Trying to reconcile the chronology of this novel is like trying to cover an irregularly shaped room with a rectangular rug: whichever way you turn and twist it there are bits of floor showing! Leon has suggested that there is something being concealed by John about his early years, hence the slippage of a year, but my impression is that there is more than one slippage in the later stages. Is there something else being concealed as well? Does John know so much himself? The last chapter portrays him as bewildered and needing time to sort his thoughts out. As I stated previously, before I started listing discrepancies, I doubt if there are any satisfactory solutions to the problems, because answers lead to questions.
If you have been, thanks for reading this, and if you want to read about media personalities, I apologise.
Thanks, Brian, for those interesting posts. I hope your latest one will not be your last.
Two remarks:
(1)
The confused chronolgy has me baffled as well, especially that impossibly dated newspaper article reporting Bellringer's death. It can't have been 1828 and surely 1834 is too late even if we account for the multiple slippages of a year that occurr in Johnnie's story? Or is it?One day soon I'll sit back and construct a timeline allowing for the different interpretations of the chronological clues...
And then there's also the question of why these slippages and confused Christmasses should occurr. Is the uncertainty about dates and years intentionally created by Johnnie and if so, for what purpose exactly? Or is it just that his memories of when events took place have become confused. How long after the last recorded event in the novel - the supposed death of Henrietta's child and her move to Callais (Ch. 111, 939, US pocket edition) in 1831 or 1832 - are Johnnie and Pentecost and Silverlight writing their collaborative autobiography? It would seem that Pentecost and Silverlight are writing their sections of the work in their shared prison cell; see Pentecost's remark in Ch. 121 concerning "our misguided friend" Silverlight "(with whom [he is] now chuming again, as when [they] first met)" (991).
(2)
Brian has noted a curious discrepancy in Jemima's 'reconstruction' of the night of the murder: "122/1165/764 - If, as Jemima Fortisquince makes out, Escreet saw the document for the first time for thirty years in May 1811, what significance would 1781 have had when Jeoffrey Huffam had died in 1770?" She is off by a decade!
Her story contains other inconsistencies as well:
• Contrary to what Jemima claims, Escreet does know where the key to the strong-box is hidden: in acting out the events of the wedding night (or is he?) he unerringly moves to a piece of floorboard that can be removed to reveal a hiding-place (1003). This would seem to imply that Jemima has indeed invented her story: Escreet knew where John Huffam kept the key to the strong-box and so there would not have been a reason for Huffam to dismiss Escreet from the plate-room. (Notice that Jemima is contradiced also by Mary's journal, from which we learn that John Huffam trusted Jeoffrey Escreet: He protests when Martin Fortisquince wants Escreet out of the room for a private conversation and apologizes upon his return; John Huffam entrusts him with the money for the codicil, etc. (Ch. 61, 546-547; “My daughter and I trust you absolutely”; Ch. 61, 548). Of course we know after Escreet's confession that this trust is misplaced - at least Jemima seems to be correct about that.)
• Jemima is certainly wrong about what happened to the codicil and the letter on the wedding night. According to her version Escreet puts them in the package with the bank notes to be handed to Peter Clothier after he (Escreet) has killed John Huffam (1003). In Mary’s journal, however, John Huffam himself has handed the codicil and the letter to Peter Clothier well before the dinner (563). Incidentally: how does Jemima know of the existence of the letter?
Jemima Fortisquince's account of the night of the murder is a clever reconstruction formed from actual observation, guesswork, and nearly twenty years of thinking about it. Her main purpose at the time of relating it is to recover the will from Mr Escreet, who interrupts her with denials and corrections. On balance, I think that Mr Escreet's denials merit some consideration, because he did not have much to lose by admitting the truth.
If Leon is going to try to lay out a chronological framework, I wish him well in his task, and I know he will have more sense than to base it on the French site, which has the first attempt at recovering the will from the Mompessons dated as October 1828(!) and other questionable dates besides. There are plenty of time references in the book, but I have concluded, after listing the discrepancies, that reconciling them may prove impossible. By the way, judging from my brief visits to it, the French site appears inactive now.
Very happy to see all the bombardment of messages removed. If there is anybody who has any postings to offer, maybe the discussion could be revived. With reference to the chronological discrepancies I have noted (at some length!), I have since read The Unburied and noticed a few in that novel also, but I cannot believe that they are really significant. Are the ones in The Quincunx quite as important as some of the contributors to this discussion believe?
I just stormed through the book in about 2.5 days, and, enrapt in the plot, missed out on many of the details … I'd hate to think I now have to go read the damn thing again; I don't have that much time!
Good to see we're back in business. I look forward to new contributions to the discussion.
Many thanks to Steve Cook - who owns this site - for removing and now blocking all that spam mail. So we can get back to work......
I've been pondering - to no great end.... - on the many geographical inconsistencies in the book, many of which are noted in posts above. Given the great emphasis that Palliser puts on maps and locations, it's difficult to think that these could be mere author errors; though some are so curious as to have me genuinely puzzled as to what point they serve, if intentional.
If you spend time with maps and notes you've made on journey times, you can get very lost in trying to place either the Huffam / Mompesson estates and Melthorpe, or the far north country "academy". I've always likes to think that this is a deliberate obscurity by Palisser - ie, you are not meant to be able to locate these fictional places with any accuracy: the geography is "plausible" without being "real". [And by the way, I'm English by origins and know my native country pretty well....].
But this seems a tad more difficult, in my view, in the London scenes. Some of the Charing Cross geography seems perfectly accurate - ie, you can trace the narrative on a map - but then occasionally both the distances and directions go to hell. For example, when Mary and young John flee their last "proper" lodging in London, they seem to run across literally miles of the city in a trice. And quite often Golden Square - a perfectly real place - seems to shift from one side of town to another (sometimes it's a few minutes walk from the Charing Cross area - true - and sometimes similarly near either Bethnal Green or Holborn - wrong). And, perhaps most clearly odd, when Mary dies just off the north of Holborn, the journey to her burial site takes some considerable time, yet in "reality" is only a couple of hundred yards at most.
Why? There's a literary trick sometimes used by authors who want to both use and disguise real locations. You can invent a small street (or particular house) just off a real one, but have in your head two or three different exact locations for it, sometimes giving directions relating to one location, sometimes another. That way, everything is "plausible", without being "pinned down". Is this what Pallister is doing? As I said, this makes a certain literary sense with the north country locations; but seems to me to introduce positive irritations into the London narrative. It reads as either sloppy or excessively mysterious - that is, if there is a point, what on earth is it?
It's worth remembering that authors - even otherwise meticulous ones - sometimes just make mistakes! As good a writer as Patrick O'Brian (he of the Aubrey / Maturin tales) sometimes mixes up logitude and latitude, and his geography of southern England occasionally confuses the great naval ports of Portsmouth and Plymouth. I once was asked to review another naval early 18th century novel whose plot was highly dependent on the niceties of sailing round the Portland / Weymouth area, but whose author had clearly never actually visited the region (amongst other howlers, he had a small boat casually tie up at Portland Bill.....): what ill luck to have a reviewer whose family lives there! I recall with great puzzlement reading a thriller by a US author which had the notion of "downtown London" at its core (and even odder was that this seemed to be either side of the Fulham Road.......).
So, is Palliser mysteriously yet intentionally vague; or is he "just all over the map"?
AGB
And yes, I really can spell "Palliser"! (I plead jet lag.....)
AGB
Thank you to AGB for his comments on the geographical inconsistencies of the narrative. One which struck me occurs at the end of chapter 25 when John describes the stage-coach journey south from Gainsborough. At that date in the early 1820s there were good turnpike roads and a mail coach would not have taken as long as John's narrative states to travel about 150 miles. Also it is hard to match all the sights he describes on the journey with real locations. The later journey to somewhere in the West Riding of Yorkshire,(one assumes), in the company of Mr Steplight must have been considerably farther but seemed to take less time. There remains the problem of the location of Melthorpe, which is about 151 miles from London and yet is some distance south of Gainsborough. If I had to guess which county Melthorpe is situated in, I should go for Nottinghamshire. The Stoniton mentioned by Mrs Digweed when she talks to Mary and John on Christmas Eve might be Sheffield. As I remarked in a posting last year, the geographical puzzles are greater than the chronological ones.
On another topic, could AGB or anybody else explain to me in simple language what anybody could achieve by posting all that spam mail on this site? I share AGB's gratitude to the site owner for removing it, but cannot see why it was put on to begin with.
On a brighter note, I am really pleased to see the discussion alive again.
There is a possibility that Mrs. Fortisquince killed JHSr. She is a fascinating character.
I think Johnnie is the biological child of Mary because of the references to how he resembles his grandfather and because of Mary's statements in Ch. 64: "it became clear what my situation was." and "I became aware that I was expecting a confinement." If Johnnie is not her biological child, what was in the torn pages? Her attitude towards what is in these pages does not correspond with Johnnie not being her biological child.
If they ever do a movie, Willem Dafoe will be Barney. The author describes Barney in Ch. 2 as "not tall". But in Ch. 58 he is "tall".
The missing pages contain(IMO) an admission by Mary, of her affair with Martin Fortesquince, something that was mortally shameful for a person of her upbringing and station in that era.
What always mystified me is how some others, e.g. Clothiers, knew she had a child by MF. Also the
Rector of her church says in Ch. 4:
"I wish you well Mrs. Mellamphy. I often see you...and reflect there is more rejoicing in heaven..you know?"
Johnnie adds" "My Mother coloured and nodded briefly."
I'm reading this as the Rector knows she has had a child out of wedlock. How would he know, as the story she told was PC was the father(as on the Baptism Certificate)?
it's been a few weeks since the last post so i don't know if folks are still keeping this site up, but i figured i would throw in my two lincolns. i finished the book about an hour ago and instead of doing work for school (i'm a law student, which is part of the reason i started reading the darn thing) i read the comments here in an attempt to gain some insight.
this hasn't been mentioned as far as i can tell and i thought i was worth suggesting: what of the possibility that mary deliberately sold herself to martin and that he impregnated her well after the 1811 wedding? there is much discussion about the motives of folks in the book and it would fit if mary had less-than-honorable bits in her past (apart from apparently bearing johnnie out of wedlock). if mary seduced martin into this arrangement it would explain the comment to the effect that she wasn't new to whoring. it would put her more in line with the other characters who all seem to be both "good" and "bad." also, if johnnie was born later than 1812, it would explain why he was small for his age and why the chronology is messed up. it would explain why the record of his birth was made in the style demanded by the new law in effect in 1813. the fact that the year reflected is 1812 can be explained by how easy it apparently is in this world to pay people to do what you want them to do. it would explain why initially martin fortisquince is listed as "godfather and father" and why someone came later and added peter in.
so what would her motives be? one possibility is that she learned of her father's death and desired to prolong the huffam line in the hopes that her beloved father's dream of re-establishing his claim for his heirs would be realized. this would jive with the theme of people doing shady things for colorable reasons. she probably did love peter. she might have felt he would be glad that his father's claim on the estate would be extinguished by the huffam heir.
as for martin, he might have agreed for several reasons. he might have hoped to profit when mary and her son came into the estate. he might have loved mary. he might have wanted to stick it to the mompessons. and, if jemima had an inkling of any of this, it would explain a bit better her hatred of mary.
this isn't exactly the most expertly-developed theory, but it's something that bugged me while i was reading the book. mary was too clean in all this. what did she tear out of that notebook? i thought it was a good observation that she stopped calling martin "uncle" after the ripped-out pages.
i'm rambling, but i wanted to put that out there. i hope y'all haven't abandoned the discussion here because i'm pretty sure that i'm starting a small obsession.
I am a bit puzzled why my response to CBK and Michael Levine which I posted around 3 April has now disappeared. It was posting 157, but now Amy's is number 157. One observation I would make to Amy is that if John was born on 7 February 1812 he and Charles Dickens were born on the same day, and in view of the author's interest and appreciation of the Victorian novelist it would be hard to make a good case for 1813 as the year of John's birth. That said, chronology is one of the big problems in understanding the workings of the plot. But let us keep this site going. It has always been interesting when people made their contributions (relevant ones, that is!).
Brian, it was almost certainly an accidental casualty of my efforts to keep these pages spam-free so that you and others can continue having this discussion. This weekend, I'll be installing a Movable Type plugin that will hopefully cut down on this problem, but since I receive hundreds of comment spams a day, I've been relying on fairly indiscriminate methods to weed them out.
Thank you, Steve, for the explanation, and I wish to thank you for clearing the spam away.
The last line of the book refers to the sword which was used by the murderer to kill his grandfather. His grandfather owned the sword that was on the wall before the murderer used it on him. The identity of the murderer is still very muddled. Although Escreet seems to be the obvious choice through his actions, there are clues that indicate that it was possibly Barney commiting the murder for hire (maybe Silas sent him?). Also it could have been Martin or even Peter Clothier.
Palliser wants to leave the truth muddled and loose ends to reflect the fact that we cannot always answer all the questions, even in our own lives.
Also, Escreet Murdered Umphraville as ordered by his biological father Jeoffrey. I thought he confessed this near the end and it was not one of the loose ends in the story, such as Johns Paternity.
Fortisquince,Quigg, Quilliam, Quintard & Mimpriss Quinta-5
Sancious Cinque-5
Pentecost- Penta-5
Umphraville, Phumphred - Fumf-5
Escreet, committed all the murders:
Umphraville, Sanctious and Huffam.....Johnnie explains that in Chapter 122, right after Escreet murdered Sanctious:
"I believed now that Peter Clothier was innocent and my doubts about the truth of what she [MF] had said had gone, for by his action Escreet had surely confessed to the murder in a manner more impossible to retract than any words."
Perhaps "my grandfather's sword" at the end is a double entendre. It can be perceived as the sword that belonged to John Huffam (the sword on the wall on his house) or perhaps he is referring to Escreet (Martin's Father) who used the sword to kill Sancious and Umphraville and arguable John as well.
On a side note, does anyone have any recommendations on books that are of the same quality as the Quincunx? It is going to be hard to follow up this book and impress me.
Luis,
When I read the last sentence the first time, I was so confused that I had to read the book again slowly.
I understand from Palliser's afterword in the hard cover edition, that there was difficulty
translating the novel to Swedish, since there are two different words for father's father and mother's father!!!!
Try the Count of Monte Cristo by Dumas!!
Thank you, I actually have read this book and saw many similarities between it and The Quincunx. My new favorite main character is 19th century London and I hope to come across a few more novels that utilize this fascinating setting.
Also, another interesting fact about the Quincunx my brother noticed after reading it, although it is a bit of a stretch. The version of the novel we read has 781 pages.
5^0 + 5^1 + 5^2 + 5^3 + 5^4 = 781, strange no?
Quick responses to points raised by Michael Levine. A young woman with a child and no husband visible in a small village would certainly have given rise to gossip at that time. The explanation offered by Mary was quite plausible but would not have convinced everybody. She knew that she and her son were in danger and it suited her to stay hidden away in the countryside. As to the pages torn out of the diary, they might well have contained more than an admission of an affair. There could have been other matters about which Mary did not want her son to know.
Michael's latest posting touches on an interesting aspect of the novel. When John (or his narrator) writes "I believed now that ..." he is stating what he felt at that moment. But there are indications at various points of the book that John has come to modify his views of what happened and it does not follow, in my opinion, that he would necessarily have believed in 1840, for instance, what he believed then in 1830 (leaving aside the tangled problem of the chronology!). Certainly Escreet killed Umphraville in a duel, though it was not a cold-blooded murder, because Escreet could have been killed himself. He also killed Sancious in full view of Jemima and John, but shortly before that he had vehemently denied killing anybody but Umphraville. I am by no means certain that at the end of the book John believes Escreet to have been the murderer of John Huffam senior. The very last sentence is loaded with significance and like Michael I went back and reread the book.
1. Escreet certainly denied the murder of Huffam, why should he admit it!!!
2. One of the biggest incongruences in the plot is of course, JF suddenly sparing Johnnies life, it just doesnt fit!!!!
3. Brian points out:
"I am by no means certain that at the end of the book John believes Escreet to have been the murderer of John Huffam senior. "
However I quote from the next to last page of the book:
"My paternity. For ( to express myself with brutal clarity), if I was not the son of a man[Peter Clothier] who committed murder and then lived in a hell of near-madness untill a hideous death which I myself was to some extent responsible, then I was at least the Grandson of such a one."
I read that as Johnnie finally acknowledging that he is convinced that his paternal Grandfather, Jeofrry Escreet was the murderer!!!
In Chapter 123, Johnnie does report Ecreet to the authorities, regarding the murder of Sanctious, and Escreet was confined to a madhouse and "died raving" several weeks later!
You like quincunx? you'll like neil stephensons baroque cycle!!!
In the interests of eliminating most of the the truly appalling amounts of comment spam I've been receiving, I've added a "capcha" mechanism to this site -- posts will be junked unless the code below the comment box is correctly entered. If you cannot enter this code, for whatever reasons, please send me an email.
Has this site finally died?
According to a restaurant review I read on 14 June, Charles Palliser has just completed a novel called The Conservatory, set in the late Victorian period. It was delivered to his agent earlier this month. He has also been working on a children's novel, Wolf Summer, first of a trilogy about children in a fictional Eastern European country in 1938. It is described as a political thriller for twelve-year-olds. These are his first novels for nine years.
I hope the board hasn't died. I thought readers might be interested to know that the UK newspaper The Guardian a couple of weeks ago (23/6/7) published a feature in which a number of prominent authors wrote about the holiday read they had most enjoyed. The novelist Jonathan Coe picked The Quincunx
http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/generalfiction/story/0,,2109130,00.html
I bet there are a few postings here in a couple of weeks from Guardian readers who buy Palliser's book on Coe's recommendation.
Thanks for the link, Pheasant. Jonathan Coe reviewing "a collection of short stories by Charles Palliser"? This refers to Palliser's novel Betrayals, I take it? Or have I missed something?
And thanks, Brian, for the excellent news we can look forward to new work by Palliser. "A political thriller for twelve-year-olds" sounds intriguing. Here's the link:
http://www.thecnj.com/review/061407/rest061407_01.html
A long time I didnt look after quincunx.
Reading some of the comments here (and especilay Brian's ones), it seems some ppl raised questions discussed on my site.
Sorry I have been too lazy to translate it. Anyway I can discuss here about some pending questions :
1 - Birth date of John. I admit my 1813 assesment is.. well just an idea, but there are serious doubt to really raise this question. Yes C.Palliser, answers himself this is not true. But he also mentionned so much incredible stuff in his letter that, it makes his answer on that particular point not credible also.
I didnt read your arguments for a 1812 year of birth cause it was a so long thread i cannot find them out. If you can sum-up it will be nice.
2 - I am still unhappy with the reasons why Jemina didnt killed Johnnie at the end. Havent found anything really reliable on that point. Comments welcome.
BTW my site is still alive, I have made some very small changes, but I really have nothing new to add by now.
http://perso.orange.fr/gix/quinconce/index
Gix requests a summary of the reasons for believing that John Huffam was born in 1812. The author of the book is a great admirer of Charles Dickens, whose middle Christian names were John Huffam, and who was born in 1812 on the same day as the latter. The register read by Mr Advowson mentions the capture of Ciudad Rodrigo by the (later) Duke of Wellington in January 1812, just before the birth of John.
The reasons why Jemima did not have John killed by Barney could be discussed at great length without any clear conclusion being reached.
I'd advise Gix not to translate the site into English. Many people can read French, perhaps more than he realises.
Hello,
Yes palliser is a Dickens fan. Do not seems to be a real agurment as he, by the way, pays tribute to CD all along the book..
Yes, the capture of this Spain casttle is pointed out. But it exactly the kind of things somebody will do if he wants to create a fake.
All my doubts comes from the Rose Act. I cannot explain why Advoson follows the Rose act as it is supposed to be active from 1/1/1813
Yes, we cannot find a reasonnable reason why Jemina didnt killed Johnnie. Thats why I guess I miss something hidden and really important for the whole story. This makes me frustrated...
Hi everyone,
I just finished The Quincunx last night and am so glad to have found this site. I loved the book, but because I read most of it at bedtime while extremely sleepy, I'm afraid I've missed a lot. Can someone point me to where it indicates that Escreet is Martin Fortisquince's father?
Dear Samara,
Check out Chapter 87, paragraph 8. :)
Of course it is not really said, as in this book all is suggested.
However, this is quite obvious as it is said that :
- JE as a young man worked at Hougham
- He was living at the same place than Martin' parents
- Martin's mother was much younger than her husband
- JE was an attractive person
- JE was fired after a scandal
- Later, Martin's mother took the statue which looks like JE to bring it into her garden at Melthorpe where she gave birth to Martin.
http://perso.orange.fr/gix/quinconce/quin_phrase.htm
Ah--got it. "It came about after a time that Mr Fortisquince wouldn't let me stay there any more. Well, these things happen and I wasn't such a bad-looking young fellow..."
I had thought for awhile that Fortisquince must be Johnnie's father (it did also cross my mind that it could be Mary's father, but I thought that less likely than Fortisquince)--but the last line of the book threw me for a loop! I knew it must mean Escreet was MF's father, but couldn't figure out where that came out in the text.
Thanks!
The Rose Act of 1812..
II. And for better ensuring the Regularity and Uniformity of such Register Books, be it further enacted, That a printed Copy of this Act, together with one Book so prepared as aforesaid, and adapted to the Form of the Register of Baptisms prescribed in Schedule (A.) to this Act annexed
It does'nt appear that Advowson followed this exact schedule (A) but I'm not sure what that implies.
It might imply that Advowson's memory was in error, from 8 or so years before...
1812!!!
more to come
My concern is sum-up in the following. Extract from
http://www.llangynfelyn.org/dogfennau/parish_registers.html
Of course, as many internet sources I dont know how reliable it is. But it looks serious :-)
How can advoson follow in february 1812 a law passed in july 1812 ?
I cant figured it out.
And it is not a late declaration as Martin give the clue about ciudad rodrigo.
"George Rose's Act of 1812, 'An Act for the better regulating and preserving Parish and other Registers of Birth, Baptisms, Marriages, and Burials, in England' (52 Geo. III, c.146) was passed 28 July 1812, and stated that 'amending the Manner and Form of keeping and of preserving Registers of Baptisms, Marriages, and Burials of His Majesty's Subjects in the several Parishes and Places in England, will greatly facilitate the Proof of Pedigrees of Persons claiming to be entitled to Real or Personal Estates, and otherwise of great public Benefit and Advantage', and enacted that separate register books should be kept for baptisms, marriages and burials from 31 Dec. 1812."
The date of John Huffam's birth is indeed a puzzle. The firmest information is in Chapter 48, narrated by John himself (and therefore, as we know, narrated somewhat for his own purposes, and presumably long after the events have taken place). Mr Advowson first says that the record of John's baptism (*not* birth - the parish registers were baptismal registers, not birth registers) should be easy to find as it was one of the very first kept according to the new rules of Sir George Rose's Act. Now, from historical sources we know that this Act was passed in mid-1812, and came into effect at the very end of 1812, so that new entries from January 1813 onwards were required to be in the new form. Furthermore we know that the very point of this Act was to ensure that parish registers were henceforth kept in a very standard form, using pre-printed books supplied by the government, with the parish clerk (or vicar) filling in the blanks.
John reads the entry Mr Advowson made some years ago, and amongst other things (things of great puzzlement!) the entry, dated Feb. 10th, refers to the recent news of the capture of Cuidad Roderique by Sir Arthur Wellesley. Again, from historical sources we know the capture occured on Jan. 19th 1812.
So, the "fact" of the entry being a new "Rose Act" entry points to Feb. 1813; the historical reference in the entry, however, points to Feb. 1812 (i.e. just as the January news had reached remote, rural parishes).
But it's also interesting that Mr Advowson's actual entry is inherently problematic if he's reading from a Rose Act text. The whole point of the Rose Act was to establish a wholly standardised record of baptisms. The text of the entry, however, is almost exactly the type of thing - an ambiguous, personal narrative of the events - that the Rose Act was designed to prevent. Furthermore, anyone who has looked at post-1812 baptismal registers would know that Advowson's entry would have been physically impossible - the Rose Act Baptismal books are printed documents, with gaps only for names, dates, places and occupations.
- So, has Palliser made a simple mistake? (The Act is always referred to as the "Rose Act of 1812" which might fool someone into thinking that it applied to a baptism *in* 1812, rather than a baptism *after the final day* of 1812). Even simpler, has he simply mistaken the year of Cuidad Rodrigo as 1813 (anyone can make a simple slip in their notes....)
- Does Pallister, from his extensive and detailed research, know something about the Rose Act that we don't? For example, is it possible that various parishes, knowing of an incipient change in the law - the debate over the Act had mostly taken place in 1810 and 1811 - started using "Rose Act" printed ledgers well in advance of the legislation? (Stranger things have happened.) So, is Mr Advowson using, at the beginning of 1812, a form that would not become compulsory for another 12 months (but how then, physically, would he have been able to write what he did, in the new-style book.....)?
- Is the narrator, John Huffam, lying about or misremembering what Mr Advowson had said? We know that, within the book as written, John's recollections and narrations have a complicated relationship with the "truth". And we know that Palliser is also playing a literary game with the "omniscience of the narrrator" tradition.
- Is Palliser choosing to disguise the year for purposes of plot and/or literary fun? That is, has he quite deliberately made it imposssible to tell whether the birth year is 1812 or 1813 by, within a couple of compellingly written sentences, incorporating "clues" that point to both of those years? (In a note earlier above I mentioned that Palliser, in some of his geographical references, has perfectly plausible and "authentic" details that nevertheless point to utterly irreconcilable locations.)
Fun book.
The date of John Huffam's birth is indeed a puzzle. The firmest information is in Chapter 48, narrated by John himself (and therefore, as we know, narrated somewhat for his own purposes, and presumably long after the events have taken place). Mr Advowson first says that the record of John's baptism (*not* birth - the parish registers were baptismal registers, not birth registers) should be easy to find as it was one of the very first kept according to the new rules of Sir George Rose's Act. Now, from historical sources we know that this Act was passed in mid-1812, and came into effect at the very end of 1812, so that new entries from January 1813 onwards were required to be in the new form. Furthermore we know that the very point of this Act was to ensure that parish registers were henceforth kept in a very standard form, using pre-printed books supplied by the government, with the parish clerk (or vicar) filling in the blanks.
John reads the entry Mr Advowson made some years ago, and amongst other things (things of great puzzlement!) the entry, dated Feb. 10th, refers to the recent news of the capture of Cuidad Roderique by Sir Arthur Wellesley. Again, from historical sources we know the capture occured on Jan. 19th 1812.
So, the "fact" of the entry being a new "Rose Act" entry points to Feb. 1813; the historical reference in the entry, however, points to Feb. 1812 (i.e. just as the January news had reached remote, rural parishes).
But it's also interesting that Mr Advowson's actual entry is inherently problematic if he's reading from a Rose Act text. The whole point of the Rose Act was to establish a wholly standardised record of baptisms. The text of the entry, however, is almost exactly the type of thing - an ambiguous, personal narrative of the events - that the Rose Act was designed to prevent. Furthermore, anyone who has looked at post-1812 baptismal registers would know that Advowson's entry would have been physically impossible - the Rose Act Baptismal books are printed documents, with gaps only for names, dates, places and occupations.
- So, has Palliser made a simple mistake? (The Act is always referred to as the "Rose Act of 1812" which might fool someone into thinking that it applied to a baptism *in* 1812, rather than a baptism *after the final day* of 1812). Even simpler, has he simply mistaken the year of Cuidad Rodrigo as 1813 (anyone can make a simple slip in their notes....)
- Does Pallister, from his extensive and detailed research, know something about the Rose Act that we don't? For example, is it possible that various parishes, knowing of an incipient change in the law - the debate over the Act had mostly taken place in 1810 and 1811 - started using "Rose Act" printed ledgers well in advance of the legislation? (Stranger things have happened.) So, is Mr Advowson using, at the beginning of 1812, a form that would not become compulsory for another 12 months (but how then, physically, would he have been able to write what he did, in the new-style book.....)?
- Is the narrator, John Huffam, lying about or misremembering what Mr Advowson had said? We know that, within the book as written, John's recollections and narrations have a complicated relationship with the "truth". And we know that Palliser is also playing a literary game with the "omniscience of the narrrator" tradition.
- Is Palliser choosing to disguise the year for purposes of plot and/or literary fun? That is, has he quite deliberately made it imposssible to tell whether the birth year is 1812 or 1813 by, within a couple of compellingly written sentences, incorporating "clues" that point to both of those years? (In a note earlier above I mentioned that Palliser, in some of his geographical references, has perfectly plausible and "authentic" details that nevertheless point to utterly irreconcilable locations.)
Fun book.
I cannot imagine C.Palliser making a mistake on this point if it is crucial from his point of view (I mean, if he really wanted to get John birth on 1813 or keep the reader confused).
Of course we can agree on few of the other points you mentionned. To me the main thing is they get this child just in time for the John (father) needs (I mean recover the will). It is too strange to believe in it. The 1813 option gives a good explanation.
At the end of the day it doesnt change so much the whole plot to get Johnnie born in 12 or 13.
By the way you post two times the same msg...
My take on 1812 or 1813, is that since Advowson did not use the required form, Schedule A, but used a free form style for the Baptism entry, that he simply was confused over the year the Act was passed and the starting year of what the act required. It is hard to believe, that it took a year for the news of Cuidad Rodrigo to reach him.
It is possible that he was confused about the Act's year, since that is collaborated by the fact that, its not in Schedule A format.
Palliser slyly makes us deduce with difficulty that the year is 1812, and tries to throw us off track!!!
Yesterday I reread the author's Afterword to the novel (dated exactly fifteen years previously, 7 August 1992), and near the end I noticed something I'd forgotten. He said he was pleased that critics had noticed the origin of John Huffam's name and the significance of his date of birth. In view of that statement from the author, how can anybody reasonably maintain that 1812 was not the year of John's birth?
Like the novel itself, the Afterword is well worth rereading to see how the author perceives the structure of the novel. One thing that I found a bit disturbing is that he claims to have spent months checking chronologies and events. My impression, detailed at length in the latter part of 2006, is of inconsistencies galore, and other subscribers have said the same.
Yes, but we also agreed, I think, that these temporal inconsistencies - such as the 'confused Christmasses' - were intentional. So perhaps Palliser was checking his chronology for the right amount of inconsistencies and their camouflage, so that at fist glance nothing seems wrong with Johnnie's narrative.
Hey
I really hope that this discussion is still all, as I read the book and the forum so that I could keep up and make my contributions. First since Peter Clothier spent some time with the Huffams and at that time Mary admitted to having feelings for him,what prevented them from concieving a child then out of pure love.Secondly since Escreet himself denies that he killed John Huffam Snr,and it is believed that someone from outside might have done it,it leaves the possibility of Barney since we know for a fact(from johnnies narriation) that he did commit a mudder round about that time and the Digweeds knowing this would thus be motivated in genuinely caring for Johnie later on.
It is also possible that Peter himself could have killed the old John Huffman,they both set up a charade in the presence of the Fortisquence,so it could have well been their plan or maybe there was no charade at all the whole act was reality then Peter would have been angry and thus kill JH snr that will explain the blood on his hands and the money. Assuming that Peter is the father and I strongly believe this to be the case it expalins why Mary made the comment "...the father of my child had killed my papa...",it also expalains(Assuming that Peter killed JH snr),why John feels that either his father or his grandfather had had commited a mudder.
With regard to the missing pages in the Mary's diary, it is possible that thy conatained a debased life that she lived while John was away at the Quiggs, she was after all staying with Mrs Puviance nd was caught by john in her way to the house to possibly render service to the gentle men. I do not believe that JH snr could be the father of Johnnie judjing from his morals.
Ofcourse as a first time reader of the book I could be wrong and if I am I seek enlightenment please.I also think that that frech site should be translated into english for those of us who cannot read a word of french. I really hope to hear from you guys,I am impressed that you managed to keep this forum going for almost four years, I believe it would be something if it can make to five years for the sake of the Quincinx
Themba
Well Themba,
- Yes, it is possible Peter was the father during the time he spent at Mary house. It is just not the more probable.
- Yes Barney could have killed John. However remember the very end of the book when Escreet killed Sancious and it is very suggested that he did, like in a dream, exactly the same things that in the 1811 night. So...
- It is difficult to see Peter as a murderer as Palliser describe him as a fvery fair person. I dont believe he ckilled anybody. Moreover he has no reason to kill Huffam. More probably he is the victim of the charade.
- Regarding the sentence "the father of my child..etc." a way to understand it is to think she was talking about Martin. Reread it. However we can interpretate, thats true, on another way. I guess Johnnie thinks his father if Martin, thats why he also think his Grand father had commited a murder (J.Escreet father of Martin when he killed J.Umphraville)
- I disagree about the missing pages. They talked about the murder night as they were written much before she prostitue herself (as far as I remember - not very sure of my memory). By the way, Palliser in his postface says it give th key about the murder and John father.
Nobody is really wrong, as we can find different way to explain the whole story. I jus guess, your is not the hidden one that palliser claims to have put into the book.
May be you will have to re-read it :-)
Sry, I am too lazy to translate my site. My be you can use a web translator... Very risky :-)
I have just been rereading bits and pieces. has anyboy realised that Johnnie and Mr. Assinder (the Mompesson steward at the estate in Hougham) are actually closely related (if Johnnie is indeed the child of Mary and Martin Fortisquince)?
Assinder is the "nevy" of the old steward, which is, of course, Martin F.'s father.
Yes that's true, and thats why Palliser noted in his postface that if the reader pays attention he will find out a kind of family link between Johnnie and the Digweed's. I believe to remember that Assinder has something to see with the Digweed from a family point of view (a cousin or something).
Can't remember that, but I will check this! Another possible connection is via the Feverfew family: the name appears on the Huffam tombstones in Melthorpe and it is also the name of the grandfather of george Digweed (if I remember correctly...).
OK, I guess your memory is better than mine. I think Feverfew is a better connection than Assinder. Sorry I made things confused. Finally :
- Yes Assinder is family related with the heros.
- The Digweed connection that Palliser poited out could probably been through this Feverfew family.
Is there anybody in this forum to sort each post and split all things ? Johnnie father's on one side, murder on another, chronology etc... ?
Hi Gix,
If you would be willing to let me have your French text in, say, Word format, I'd happily translate it into English. Yours is a great site, and I'm sure the mostly non-francophone members of this group would love to be able to read it.
Hi Gix and AGB,
We can also share the work load. I'd be moe than happy to translate a couple of sections as well.
Hi Gix and AGB,
We can also share the work load. I'd be more than happy to translate a couple of sections from the site as well. Just let me know!
No pb, for me.
Very helpfull, thx.
If you leave me an email where to send you the text we can start that.
You can send adress here : gix@wanadoo.fr
Hi Leon,
Let's both email Gix at his Wanadoo address and get the source material. Perhaps you and I can then email each other to work out who will do what, when.
You can contact me via
AGB
Hmmm ..... that should be: dr_gary@chezbeauxlivres.com
Johnnies Birth Year, New Info
In Chapter 92, Mrs. Digweed and Johnnie converse:
"What year was it that your Grand-Dad was done to death?"
"Why, it was in May the year before I was born."
"And you were born about six months a-fore Joey, aint that so?"
"Why then, that was the May of the year of the Great Comet....etc
"That was the time I was nursing Polly....etc
[ There was a very Great Comet viewable in 1811.... (Internet source)
1811 Comet Flaugergues appeared between April 1811 and January 1812.
This comets tail was about 25 degrees long.
More can be found at the American Meteor Society Great Comet of 1811.
This comet was seen with the unaided eye. Two tails where observed with this comet, one straight and one curved. ]
I believe this further supports my conclusion that Johnny was born Feb 1812, disputing the
ambiguous statement Advowson made regarding the Rose Act of 1812.
John Senior was killed in 1811, the year Polly was being nursed, the year of the Great Comet, and John Jr. was
born the following February.
No, it just means that Johnnie thought he was born in 1812 (because his mother told him). Thats what he said then to Mrs Digweed.
It is still logical.
yes 1811 comet is Flaugergues without any doubts.
I first read The Quincunx when I was in high school, a year or two after it was published. I then read it again after I graduated from college. I have obtained a law degree in the years that have gone by and now, reading the novel a third time, I am amazed at the things I missed when I was younger.
I have very much enjoyed the postings on this site and hope I can spur the discussion forward. I will be finishing the book again over the weekend and will then post my thoughts on it. Hopefully, I may be able to shed some light on some of the key mysteries.
One thing has been bothering me. This subject has been touched on before, but who is Mary's mother and why is she mysteriously absent from the novel? Or is she? I do not know if this question is crucial and have thought of the possibility that it is something of a red herring planted by Palliser, but still it is odd that in a work of fiction so concerned with familial ties, all we hear of Mary's mother is that she died when Mary was very young. For the life of me, I cannot figure out who it could be. Looking at the family tree at the end of the book, I do not really see any likely candidates. If someone has any thoughts on this subject, I would be eager to read them.
Last year I've been making a case for Old Lizzie being Eliza Umphraville (see posts from May 30, 2006 ff.). One of the points I called upon to substantiate my claim was the dramatic irony which the identification brings to Mary's death scene. I quote myself (references to US pocket ed.):
"A delirious Mary cries out "Mamma!" on her death bed and Palliser has Johnnie write that "As if in response, the old woman came across" (Ch. 50, 469). I am not arguing that Mary recognizes Lizzie as her mother (which Lizzie is not), or that Lizzie recognizes Mary as a blood relative; my point is that Palliser uses the literary convention of a character calling out for his/her dead or absent mother while in a delirium just before dying to an ironic effect (if we take Lizzie to be Eliza). Mary calls out for her mother in the company of the best thing she could ask for given the circumstances: someone who is quite possibly her grandmother. (And notice, too, how Mary hereby joins the ranks of the many characters in the novel who confuse generations - the most obvious example being Jeoffrey Escreet in Ch. 87-90.)"
BAC's comments about the lingering mystery of the identity of Mary's mother have made me wonder if Lizzie is perhaps something more than her grandmother, although I do not see (as of yet) how she could be Mary's mother as well as her grandmother.
Alternatively, Mary's mother could just be an anonymous prostitute from the 'bagnio' next-door to the Huffam house at Charing Cross.
And two other things have been bothering me lately:
1. Why should it be mentioned so explicitly in Mary's diary that Peter changes from a green coat to a scarlet one before returning to the house at Charing Cross after the charade at the night of the murder. Just a disguise?
2. Has anybody else also been struck by some of the resemblances in the physical description of some of the characters? Barney Digweed, for instance, has (if I remember correctly) the "high-domed forehead" that is also attributed to Hugo Mompesson and Johnnie time and time again refers to his strikingly blue eyes. The only other character with eyes like that, according to Johnnie (although he does not make the link explicitly) is another Mompesson, viz. Lydia. And then there is the case of Peter Clothier, whose description by Johnnie calls to mind his description of Joey Digweed (brown eyes, gentle features, small of stature, etc...). (If anybody is particularly interested I can provide quotations in a later post.) And there are more matters concerning physical appearance: Why do David and Tom Mompesson resemble one another so little? And what about Barney and George Digweed? Why is Barney red-haired and his brother not?
Whaddayouthink? Just coincidences and/or meaningless details or possibly significant clues to hidden family ties?
Leon, I completely agree that Lizie is Eliza. A brilliant catch on your part. Based upon this discovery, I had been thinking that it was possible that Lizzie/Eliza was Mary's mother, but I don't really see how that would work and, more importantly, I don't see what the point would be, i.e., how does it really impact the story other than to add another one of Palliser's trademark cruel ironies?
However, it is interesting that although Mary states that her mother died when she was very little and it is thus likely that Mary has no memory of her, she does cry out for her mother as she dies. Just a universal human reaction to impending death? Or is Palliser tipping his hand a bit to us regarding Lizzie? I personally think he is tipping his hand, but as previously stated do not think Lizzie is Mary's mother but only her grandmother.
A couple of other things that have been bothering me.
1. What does the phrase "being like to to die" mean in John's Parish birth record prepared by Advowson? I have tried looking it up but have so far been unsuccessful. Is this just an Anglicism that a Yank wouldn't understand?
2. The missing pages from Mary's diary. If they were only about M. Fortisquince, I am not sure why Mary would have John burn them. I understand that early 19th century England was a place very different from our own and having a child out of wedlock or in wedlock with another man would disgrace a woman, but if Mary knows that she is going to die, wouldn't it be better if John knows the whole truth?
3. What of Helen Quilliam's "lost" year? Where was she and what was she doing? I feel that it is something dishonorable if she feels compelled to gloss over it.
Sorry, I forgot to respond to Leon's comments.
I do not attribute any special significance to Peter's change of coats on the night of the murder. I think it was just to throw suspicion off him if anyone noticed him in the house, such as Fortisquince.
By the way, why was the charade really necessary other than to try to fool Jemima? Which it did not even accomplish.
I am almost completly certain that Barney is a relation of the Mompessons. I am not sure exactly how, but it just feels right.
It is interesting that two of the most evil, yet most ambiguous characters, Jemima and Barney, do survive. Perhaps, it shouldn't be such a surprise, as both are such cunning manipulators.
In response to BAC:
'Being like to die' may be an Anglicism the Dutch don't understand either, but I'd always just assumed it meant something like 'unlikely to survive the first weeks of infancy.' Lemme check the Dutch translation which I have somewhere, see what it makes of it.
Some contributors have suggested the missing pages may have contained not only information about Johnnie's father but also about deeply shameful conduct on Mary's part - as hinted at by Daniel Clothier.
Helen's lost year... You have to help me out there. Is that info in her story in Part II?
And in response to his responses:
The change of coat just seems a rather pointless detail. Mary suggests the charade was necessary because John Sr. did not fully trust Martin.
I also think Barney related to the Mompessons, and like BAC I cannot quite put my finger on just how. Any thoughts on that, anybody?
"Being like to die" means exactly what Leon suggests above: "unlikely to live for more than a very short time". Although I can;t check my sources this morning (I'll try and do so later) it was a common "trick" used to avoid the necessity of a formal ceremony of baptism in the Church, conducted by the priest and in front of witnesses. Remember that Advowson's records are not birth records (which no-one kept) but baptismal records, baptism being what the Church concerned itself with. So "being like to die" - whether actually true or not - triggers a "spiritual emergency" allowing a baptism to be carried out (by the Clerk I think, without the need of the priest)at short notice, in private. Perhaps that was just the preferred method for children whose father's could not be produced on the scene; perhaps Palliser intended a little more.......
AGB
I had also thought that the missing pages of Mary's journal contained something more damning than her affair with Fortisquince, but I have no idea what it could be. A previous stint of prostitution jumps to mind, but we have no information about that. Indeed we have precious little information about Mary's early life. Sometimes I fantasize about flying over to England, looking up Palliser, and throwing my copy of the Quincunx at him.
Thanks for the help regaridng "being like to die." I agree with the interpretations presented here.
A small team is hard at work translating Gix's excellent and thought-provoking French website into English, as mentioned above (it should be finished and published in a couple of weeks, I guess). I need a bit of simple help. Neither Gix nor I have to hand the edition of Quincunx with Palliser's Afterword. Could somebody who does have it look up 2 things for me and post them here?
1) Is it in fact called an Afterword, Postscript, or what?
2) Incest. There's the famous passage where Palliser says that a friend proposed a theory on Johnnie's parentage that would blow apart the conventions of the Victorian novel. I need the actual wording of that sentence.
Thanks,
AGB
Glad to provide the simple help requested by AGB. The piece is called the Author's Afterword. There appear to be two passages relevant. On the first page:-
A colleague in my department at the university where I then taught, however, had read the novel very acutely and had arrived at a hypothesis about one element of the mystery contained within it which I found both intriguing and disturbing. And yet I could hardly be surprised, for I had deliberately breached the 'implied contract' between writer and reader on which the nineteenth-century novel is based and with which The Quincunx could - at least superficially - be assumed to be complying.
Two pages later, after referring to the matter of who John's father was:-
What my colleague at the university, a highly alert and suspicious reader, did was to point out a hideous possibility. This was something that struck at the very heart of Victorian family values and which would certainly have shattered the conventions of the nineteenth-century novel far more devastatingly than what I had in fact devised.
I hope the above will be of some assistance.
Just finishing up the novel now and will be posting my thoughts today or tomorrow.
Something that has been bothering me is the possibility that Lydia Mompesson had an illegitimate child by John Umphraville before they were able to marry; please forgive me if this has been brought up before. In Ch. 99, Lady Mompesson says to Lydia: "I don't quite know what you imagine your parents did, but the truth is that it died. You were told so at the time and it is the truth."
If the child did not die, as I suspect, then I have wondered if it lived on and has appeared in somewhere in the narrative. Given that Barney Digweed shares Lydia's bright blue eyes and a connection to the Mompessons, I think he could be the lost child.
I also wonder if Mary is a possible candidate given that nothing is said of her mother other than that she died when Mary was little. We also hear very little about John Huffam's marriage to Mary's mother, which appears curious. However, I do not know why the Monpessons would give Lydia's child to John Huffam. I think Mary would also be to young to be Lydia's child.
Again please forgive me if these ideas have already been considered and/or discredited.
AGB I guess it is this one : ---> What my colleague at the university, a highly alert and suspicious reader, did was to point out a hideous possibility. This was something that struck at the very heart of Victorian family values and which would certainly have shattered the conventions of the nineteenth-century novel far more devastatingly than what I had in fact devised.
In response to BAC:
Mary, although she has blue eyes, is most certainly too young to be Lydia Mompesson's lost child. If Mary is 17 in 1811 (according to her diary), this means she was born in 1794. If Lydia Mompesson was pregnant by John Umphraville at the time of the duel and his death, this must have been in 1769, the child being born the following year.
Barney could be a candidate. He has the Mompesson-looks and has strikingly blue eyes, just as Lydia Mompesson. We never learn his exact age, but we do know that at the time of his first meeting with Johnnie in Melthorpe, he is "between [Mary] and Bissett in age." Mary is 23, 24 at that time; we never learn Bissett's age. If Barney is the lost Mompesson he would have been 47 at that time, and nearing 60 when we last meet him outise the house at Charing Cross after Sancious' murder. Could be, but perhaps this is stretching things a bit.
The other possibility is that Lydia Mompesson's long-lost child is none other than John Huffam Sr. himself (as suggested here by a.o. Gix).
Thanks to Brian and Gix: that information is exactly what I need.
I do not have the book in front of me at the moment, so I am not able to refer to certain details.
If John Huffam Sr. is Lydia's child then who was responsible for raising him? James and Eliza? Most certainly not. Then the Mompessons? I remember reading that John and Martin Fortisquince were raised as brothers, but cannot remember who was responsible for their upbringing.
Overall, having finally finished the book again, I am a little disappointed and frustrated. I really enjoy speculating about the hidden relationships between the characters and other such issues, but I'm not sure where it gets us.
Take Martin Fortisquince for example. Possibly the most enigmatic character in the book. He is quite likely John's father and it is suggested that he may have killed John's grandfather, (although this seems unlikely). However, he is a complete cipher. We really know nothing about him except that he is universally described as being kind, generous, and principled. The opposite of almost every character in the book. I really have no feel for the character of Martin at all because he is so abstract. Consequently, upon finishing the novel, I did not care that much if Martin was John's father or if he killed John's grandfather. I suppose this may be Palliser's point. After all, how ironic is it that in a novel where all of the characters are obsessed with familial relations, the protagonist is not even sure of the identity of his own father and, thus, of his own legitimacy. I understand the irony, but it falls a little flat for me. At the end of the novel I found myself thinking "I guess we will never know" again and again about certain issues. Oh well.
It surely is a frustrating book whenever you feel that you want a clear answer...... One of the reasons I love reading it and re-reading it is a reason we don't speak much of here (where we tend to be "plot-centric") is the sheer quality of the writing. I think Palliser is a wonderful stylist, wring vivid, beautifully balanced sentences and paragraphs. Every place, every character leaps off the page to me - I can hear them, see them, see what they see and smell what they smell.... And that's true even for the enigmatic characters, like Fortisquince. I can figure out who and what he is - even though I can't figure out quite what makes him tick.
By the way, one of the more interesting things in the book is that Fortisquince is indeed always described as kind, generous and principled - in many ways, a Victorian gentleman's ideal view of himself. But Palliser most certainly suggests - sometimes rather well-buried suggestions - that he was perhaps really none of these things. One can argue that, at every turn, he supports the Mompesson interests as against the interests of those to whom he ostensibly shows most care and attention: John Huffam Sr, Mary and Johnnie.
On a small plot-point, Johnnie surely does question his own legitimacy. But a point that Palliser certainly understood, and Johnnie would have understood too, is quite intentionally not made explicit. As has been mentioned here before, *legally* Johnnie's doubts (or rather, his virtual certainty) that he is not the blood-child of Mary Huffam and her lawful husband Peter Clothier are of limited consequence. He was born in wedlock, and so is presumptively legitimate *unless a party with legal standing can prove otherwise*. Mary's diary - in which she may have confessed to Martin being the father - has been irrevocably destroyed (or the crucial bit has), and Mary is dead. Peter is dead and, so far as we know, left no record of doubt (his encounter with Johnnie was wholly private). Martin is dead, and we hear of no record of his views. Who, including Johnnie, could now prove that he was in fact *not* the child of Peter and Mary? So, legally he's the Huffam and Clothier heir even if he "knows" he isn't.....
AGB
AGB, I agree with everything that you wrote regarding Palliser's ability as a writer. The Quincunx is a true pleasure to read. However, I can't help feeling a little annoyed at all the loose ends. It's not as if I expect Palliser to hold my hand and explain everything to me in minute detail, but I would like to feel that I have enough information to figure out things on my own.
Take the murder of John Huffam for example. Here are the most likely candidates for the murderer: Escreet, Barney, Fortisquince, and Clothier. While a few of the candidates are more likely than others it is still impossible to say who committed the murder. I actually feel Palliser may not know who killed Huffam.
Regarding the murder I think there is not a lot of doubt. In one of the final scene, when Escreet kills Sancious, it is highly suggested he is the murderer of John.
However Palliser let the reader imagine what he wants and it is better like that I guess.
Escreet is the most likely candidate for the murderer, but what of Barney's admission that he killed a man around the time of the murder? What of the fact that Peter Clothier may very well have been mentally disturbed? Finally, what of Fortisquince wandering around in the house? Can we really account for him?
By the way, I tend to agree with Gix that John was not born in February 1812, but at a later date, most likely in 1813. I think Martin only began his affair with Mary after the murder. I think that he felt responsible for Mary and that, as the two of them grew closer, their passions got the better of them. I think that John's baptism record was forged after his birth via a bribe to Advowson.
The puzzle in the book that really irritates me is not so much 'who is Johnnie's father' as this: if it is, as Palliser seems to give every clue, Martin Fortisquince, then how on earth could his have happened? Even by turning the received view of Victorian morality on its head, I can't quite see Mary falling for Peter and being happy to Marry him, whilst at the same time willingly (or even unwillingly) bedding her father's best friend, a man much older than her. So, if Martin's the father, the consummation must occur *after* the disaster of the wedding night to Peter and her father's murder.
Now, my experience of women whose fathers have just been murdered on the wedding night and whose husbands have been committed to an insane asylum for the deed is indeed limited. But I'm guessing it's unlikely that their reaction is immediately to have sex with their father's "brother". (Though, if that's what did happen, it can surely have only been for the most cynical of reasons: the two of them realizing the imperative of a presumptively legitimate Huffam heir). If it did happen later - which is just about credible, but still not very.... - then the forging of the retrospective baptism record was done as clumsily as it was possible to do the thing - in which case, why do it at all? Either accept that Johnnie is a genuine "love-child", or do a proper forgery to cast him as the indubitable heir to the Huffam estate.
Annoying. Though I still keep re-reading it. Partly for Chapter 1 - as well-written an opening chapter as I've ever read. I was hooked by the third line........
rubbish!!!!!!!!
Escreet committed all the murders, Umphraville, Huffam, Sanctious
Lydias child is Huffam( Johnnies GF)
Johnnies BD 1812...same as Dickens...the year after the comet, the year of Wellsleys victory in Spain
Glad you've got it all figured out! I guess this forum can be closed now.
Michael,
Understand the comet and ciudad rodrigo victory is not at all a proof for Johnnie birth date.
I guess Dickens is a much more convincing argument.
As AGB explain, if Johnnie BD is 1812 we have not a lot of possibilities :
- Escreet rapes Mary
- Martin before the murder
- Peter before the murder (he spent some days inside the Huffam home)
- John Huffam (incest)
- A rape just after the murder
any other idea ?
I think Dickens' birthday is another game Palliser is playing with us. When one first makes the connection, it is very tempting to say that John was born on the same day and year as Dickens, due to Palliser's obvious affection for Dickens. However, when you realize that Mary had precious little time to be intimate with either Peter or Martin prior to and during the wedding night and that there are problematic issues surrounding John's baptismal record, you begin to wonder when exactly John was conceived.
I think that it is most likely that, after John Huffam's murder, Martin realized that Mary had no one to take care of her and was in danger and thus moved her down to his house at Hougham. He then visited her several times to check up on her and they began an affair. John was conceived somewhere in between 1811 and 1812. More likely 1812. I think Martin may have stopped visiting Mary after John's birth for fear of being further compromised.
I think that we should keep in mind that it was necessary for Mary to be in hiding regardless of whether she was with child. She had reason to fear for her life because of Silas Clothier.
"Mary had precious little time to be intimate with either Peter or Martin prior to and during the wedding night". How long does it take?
In response to BAC:
"John was conceived somewhere in between 1811 and 1812. More likely 1812."
We can be more precise than this, and I don't think 1812 as the year of conception is the more likely possibility.
In her diary Mary writes that her situation compromised her upon het arrival in Melthorpe (which is why she was treated as she was by "the better sort of people in the village"), "particularly when a few months later it became clear what [her] situation was" (US pocket ed., 574) - i.e.: when she began to show the first signs of pregnancy. Mary arrived in Melthorpe in mid/late May 1811 as a young widow escorted by Martin as her late husband's father. For the village to talk about her behind her back, there must have been suspicion that the child Mary was so obviously carrying a few months after her arrival could not have been conceived just prior to her husbands's death, but AFTER that man's death by his father who was visiting her regularly until the child was born (see p. 575). This would place the date of conception in June/July 1811. (And remember that Martin was quite probably known in the village as the son of the old steward of the Mompessons.)
Also note the clue of the notorious Ratcliffe Highway Murders of December 1811 as indicating that Johnnie was born in 1812: "I never gave up thinking about the mystery of Papa's murder and at the end of that first year - in the December before you were born - there was a terrible reminder of it when two families in the Ratcliffe-highway were slaughtered at night by a man who broke into their houses" (575; see also Bissett's remarks in Ch. 2, p. 19).
Interesting. Could give, please, chapter number of that pege 575 ?
Thx
Another piece of evidence to corroborate John's belief that he was born in 1812 is the mention (very early in chapter 4) of the arrival in the post from Martin Fortisquince of the great Horwood map of London, which John specifically says was published in the year after he was born. Both the U.K. paperback and the U.S. hardback editions acknowledge permission to use parts of the map and give its date as 1813.
In response to Gix:
pp. 574-575 of the US pocket ed. are in Chapter 64 of the novel (i.e. part of Mary's diary).
In response to Brian:
In fact, the only piece of evidence we have for a birthyear of 1813 is a dubious bit of internet info stating that the Rose Act was passed in 1812, but was effective as of January 1813. As I have asked before to all participants here: just how reliable is that info (link/quote provided somewhere in the above)?
In response to Michael Levine (Sept. 25, 2007):
I don’t think we can be so sure Escreet murdered John Huffam Sr. as you claim to be (although he certainly killed Umphraville and Sancious). What Escreet is re-enacting (as probably some kind of traumatic memory) at the instigation of Jemima on the night when he murders Sancious is not so much the murder of Huffam from 1811, but the duel with John Umphraville from 1769 – with Sancious in the role of the victim of course. Like Anna Mompesson did on that earlier occasion, Johnnie distracts Escreet’s opponent, enabling him to drive the sword home. Far from ‘confessing’ to the murder of Huffam, Escreet is re-living his killing of Umphraville.
Notice how Jemima has to give the most careful directions in order to have Escreet act out the Huffam-murder. Sancious even has to hand him the sword (Ch. 122, p. 1001). And Escreet himself denies Jemima’s version of events. He says Jemima has invented all of her story and claims there was an intruder.
Indeed, there are good reasons to doubt the veracity of Jemima’s ‘testimony’:
• Jemima herself seems to be implying she invented the story to goad Jeoffrey Escreet to hand over the testament. Johnnie, too, cannot help but think so.
I understood what she was suggesting. And surely she was right! Peter Clothier was innocent and had been the unwitting dupe of a plot to incriminate him which had gone wrong because of her own interference. Everything she said provided a satisfactory explanation of the hitherto puzzling facts of the crime. But was it true or was she saying all of this merely in order to intimidate the old man? (1002)
As I came forward Mrs Sancious looked at me fearfully: ‘I did not mean it,’ she stammered. ‘I only intended to goad him into giving us the will.’
What was she saying? Simply that she had not meant this to happen? Or that she had made her story up? Or had merely guessed at what she had not seen? (1004-1005)
‘You implied just now that you only said it because you wanted to goad the old man into giving you the will. What did you mean?’
‘What does it matter?’ she said dully.
‘It matters to me. Did you mean that you invented those things?’
She shrugged her shoulders: ‘I saw Clothier.’
‘Then if you saw all that, why didn’t you come forward when he was indicted?’
‘You assume too much. And why should I? I hated your mother.’ (1007-1008)
• From Mary’s journal we learn that John Huffam trusted Jeoffrey Escreet: He protests when Martin Fortisquince wants Escreet out of the room for a private conversation and apologizes upon his return; John Huffam entrusts him with the money for the codicil, etc. (546-547; “My daughter and I trust you absolutely” 548). Of course this trust turns out to have been very much misplaced.
• According to Jemima, John Huffam orders Jeoffrey to leave the plate-room before he opens the strong-box, since even he was not to know where the key was hidden. Escreet denies that this was the case. On p. 1003 it turns out that Escreet does know exactly where the key to the strong-box is hidden: in acting out the events of that night (or is he?) he unerringly moves to a piece of floorboard that can be removed to reveal a hiding-place. This would seem to imply that Jemima has indeed invented her story: Escreet knew where John Huffam kept the key to the strong-box and so there would not have been a reason for John to dismiss Escreet from the plate-room.
• Jemima is certainly wrong about what happened to the codicil and the letter on the wedding night. According to her version Escreet had put them in the package with the bank notes after he has killed John Huffam (1003). In Mary’s journal John Huffam has handed the codicil and the letter to Peter Clothier before the dinner (563). Incidentally: how does Jemima know of the existence of the letter?
Leon,
Sir George's Rose's Act (Act of 52 George. III, chapter 146: "An Act for the better regulating and preserving Parish and other Registers of Births, Baptisms, Marriages, and Burials, in England") was signed into law on 28th July 1812. Here's the crucial part:
"That from and after the Thirty-first Day of December One thousand eight hundred and twelve, Registers of Public and Private Baptisms, Marriages, and Burials, solemnized according to the Rites of the United Church of England and Ireland, within all Parishes or Chapelries in England, whether subject to the Ordinary, or Peculiar, or other Jurisdiction, shall be made and kept by the Rector, Vicar, Curate, or Officiating Minister of every Parish (or of any Chapelry where the Ceremonies of Baptism, Marriage, and Burial have been usually, and may according to Law be performed) for the Time being, in Books of Parchment or of good and durable Paper, to be provided by His Majesty's Printer as Occasion may require, at the Expence of the respective Parishes or Chapelries...."
This website gives the full text, with printed examples of what was required to be done to comply:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~framland/acts/1812Act.htm
AGB
Well, that looks much more convincing than the other internet 'proof' I have seen so far. :)
The problem now is whether Palliser simply made a tiny mistake or is deliberately trying to point to a birthyear of 1813.
Given the fact that this is such specific information not readily available to the general reading public - in contrast to the Ratcliffe Highway murders, the comet, the publication date of the map, Dickens' birthyear, etc. (which all point to the year of birth as 1812) - I think the latter possibility is slightly more likely...
Well said, Leon! The evidence we have is overwhelmingly in favour of 1812. I've looked at the 1812/1813 discussion and cannot see what the 1813 proponents are really getting at. In respect of the murder of John Huffam, I must say I am pleased that somebody has pointed out in some detail why Escreet, though possibly the likeliest suspect, was not necessarily the murderer. Jemima Fortisquince's reconstruction is clever, but she had over twenty years to work it out! Finally, may I say how delighted I am that this discussion has come out of the doldrums again and is providing lively debate.
I meant to write that the FORMER possibility is slightly more likely, i.e. Palliser having made a mistake in his research on the Rose Act - as Brian rightly surmised. :)
As I wrote above - a few week's ago - the Rose Act took effect from the last day of 1812, and is always called "the Rose Act of 1812". Even though Rose Act-style entries don't occur in 1812. That could have fooled Palliser; or Palliser could simply be having his character Mr Advowson make a mistake of recollection.
I too conclude that Johnnie was born in early 1812, and thus conceived around May 1811. But there are three persistent niggles - the Rose Act issue; how that conception could have taken place, and with whom (and why!); why Pallister several times stresses Johnnie as "small for his age".
It's curious, isn't it, that in a novel that largely maintains the high Victorian coyness about sex, everything turns on whom Mary Huffam had sex with, and when.
AGB
Ratcliffe Highway Murders
Leon, thx I found it.
The problem is that Mary wrote it. In the 1813 BD hypothesis, only Mary, Martin and Advowson are aware of the real date. Both first should have swear to never, never revelate it. So when Mary write that her diary, we can expect she still do like Johnnie was born in 1812.
Brian,
About the London map. Johnnie is speaking in this chapter and he though to be born in 1812. So it is normal he says the map was edited the year after his girth year. It is the same game that with the comet.
By the way, I found another clue for 1813 when rereading those parts : Mary says she gets problem because of her situation of a pregnant alone person. She always said they (with Martin) pretend her husband just die before she came to Melthorpe. If it is the case, I dont see any reason why people will reject her (well, I agree, I am not fully aware of England morality in 19th century :-) On the other hand if we imageni she becomes pregnant during 1812, everybody will understand she gets the children out of a wedding which is an argument to reject her for Melthrope ppl.
I think one of the fundamental problems with the Quincunx is that Palliser made things so complex that he can be accused of wanting to have his cake and eat it too.
For example, take what Advowson says about the baptismal record. Fortisquince is stated to be the godfather, but then, after a pause, he writes "and father." Mary then takes up the quill and writes in Peter's name.
Why would Fortisquince, who is married to Jemima, indicate that he is John's father? By doing so, he would make John a bastard and disinherit him from both the Clothier and Huffam estates. He would also make Mary a "fallen woman." What if Jemima were to find out that Martin is indicated as the father of Mary's child on the baptismal record?
It does not make a lot of sense, but is Fortisquince trying to say to Mary that he is willing to admit to being the father of John if Mary will give up her pursuit of the Huffam estate on John's behalf? Does he feel that they would all be better off it they did so?
If that is Fortisquince's offer, Mary turns it down by writing in Peter's name. First of all, it is possible, although most of us agree, extremely unlikely, that Peter is John's father and thus that Mary simply wants to tell the truth about John's paternity.
I think that it is more likely that Mary does not want John to be a bastard, for propriety's sake, but also so that he does not lose his chance at the inheritance.
So, this episode seems to indicate that Martin is John's father and may have been willing to admit so at one time. However, Mary, either for the sake of veracity or, more likely, expediency, chose to stick with the story that Peter was John's father.
In response to AGB (Sept. 29, 2007): “why Palliser several times stresses Johnnie as ‘small for his age.’”
If Johnnie is indeed born on Feb. 5, 1812, and he is conceived by Martin sometime after Mary’s arrival in Melthorpe in mid/end May 1811 – say, July or even August 1811 – then he is born slightly prematurely and could therefore perfectly well seem “small for his age” later in life.
In response to BAC’s interpretation of Martin and Mary’s curious behaviour during the baptism episode as narrated by Advowson: That is exactly how I read that passage!
What I think could have happened is this:
• On her wedding day John Huffam Sr. makes Mary promise that she keeps the codicil safe “and use it on behalf of [her] heir” (US pocket ed., p. 563). Mary takes this promise very seriously, as we learn several times from Johnnie’s narrative.
• After the tragedies of and following the wedding night, Mary is left married to Peter Clothier who is incarcerated for life, but without a Huffam heir.
• Her only chance to produce a child that can still pass as a legitimate heir – i.e. a child that is conceived by her lawfully wedded husband Peter Clothier prior to his arrest for the murder of John Huffam Sr. on May 6, 1811 – is to find a suitable partner as soon as possible.
• The most likely candidate available to her once she has settled in Melthorpe is Martin, who escorts her there and visits her frequently during her first months there. Moreover, Mary knows Martin has had a crush on her for a long time and had even proposed a marriage (but was refused by John Huffam Sr.).
• So sometime during the Summer months of 1811 Mary, adamant to keep her promise to her dead father, seduces Martin, who succumbs (despite his marriage to Jemima) and conceives Johnnie with her. (So Mary is indeed much more cunning than Johnnie makes her seem. And she has some experience with a kind of prostitution – at least she knows how to seduce men.)
• During the registration Martin makes a tentative offer to expose himself as the biological father of the child – thereby compromising himself, turning Mary into a ‘fallen woman’ and making sure the child cannot be a legitimate heir to the estate. Mary, wishing to honour her promise to her father, of course refuses and gives ‘Peter Clothier of London’ as the father of the child.
• The townspeople of Melthorpe are suspicious of course: a young widow suddenly turns out to be pregnant after a much older gentleman, supposedly her father-in-law, has been seen visiting her frequently…
Notice how this scenario allows for a fitting symmetry in the events taking place in the Half-Moon room at the Blue Dragon Inn in Hertfort: both during Mary and Peter’s only night together as husband and wife, and during the night Henrietta and Henry Bellringer spend there on their way to the estate, NOTHING HAPPENS – i.e. no child is conceived – even though Johnnie may suspect otherwise. (In my view Henrietta is pregnant with David Mompesson’s child.)
In response to Gix: your 1813-hypothesis certainly has some appeal, but I think you read way too much into just one passage – the scene with Advowson in Ch. 48 – for corroboration. There is, it seems to me, no hard textual evidence to support it. But creative over-interpretation has its merits too! Please keep on trying to persuade me!
Leon points out the fitting symmetry of the events in the Halfmoon room at the Blue Dragon Inn in Hertford. The novel has a few repetitions of events in it. My view is very different on this point. I think Martin Fortisquince and Mary Clothier conceived John in that room very shortly indeed after the murder of her father and that Henry Bellringer also made Henrietta pregnant there on their journey north. Both journeys were directly connected with weddings and the possession of the Huffam estate. Also the bride was impregnated by one not intended as her husband (for the purposes of estate!) on both occasions. It is interesting that John is very pensive when seeing the room for the first time and Joey has to call him away. Could he be aware of something being repeated, as happens to him at the very end of the novel? Just an idea. Comments welcome. I want to thank Leon for his well-reasoned and documented view, even though I disagree sometimes.
Thx Leon, this a very convicing way to explain that. Especially the idea about a a premturaly child which could explain his small stature.
I also like the idea of making the child is coming from Mary in respect to her beloved father. Why not.
Be sure I have also read the other aspects, but I never find a real proof for the 1812 BD, just a trend like you mention (and some were not very convincing like the comet or other things).
Regarding this part with Advowson, I re-read it this morning ( :-) ) to check and try to find something else. On the French version, it is said Advowson is unconfortable (even after he has confess to Johnnie that Barbellion came to find his birth act). I really have no explanation to Advwoson attitude. By the way, I thought about another possibility, but not a very satisfaying one : Mary and Martin waited 1 year to declare the child in order to protect them from Clothier. I can imagine they were a bit paranoïd after John Sr murder, and thought that Clothier will investigate to know if a legitimate child exist. A way to do it is to look at all the birth records in the following year. If you dont declare it, you stay anonymous. Well, I know it is a little bit crazy. But it can also explain Advowson attitude obliged to record a 1 yo child which should be very uncommon in 19th century...
I agree with brian, there are symetries everywhere in the novel (and 1st in the quincunx figure) and it is an interesting point to dig in.
By the way AGB with the help of Leon have translated my French language site on Quincunx. Thx to them for the great work. You can get it there :
http://perso.orange.fr/gix/quincunx/index
In response to Brian:
I agree with Brian it would be a nice touch if Johnnie had indeed been conceived in the Halfmoon-room at the inn in Hertford - which is actually what I was thinking until the matter of the exact date of conception was brought up here and I started getting interested in why Johnnie is so small for his age. Pushing his date of conception forward closer to his birthday seemed a fine solution. :) But the symmetry between Mary's situation and that of Henrietta is a very strong point made by Brian (if indeed Henrietta is carrying Bellringer’s child and not David Mompesson’s, which perhaps is the more likely interpretation - I'll re-read the conversation between Johnnie and Henrietta after Bellringer's murder tonight to see what I make of it now).
Brian and Gix are also of course right there are repetitions, mirrorings and symmetries in the novel, which itself is a symmetrical structure. I more than welcome Gix's suggestion to dig into this aspect so here’s a start, in random order:
1. Escreet’s murder of Sancious mirrors his murder of Umphraville (see on of my posts above)
2. Important events in the Half-Moon-room in the Blue Dragon Inn in Hertford (Mary and Martin, Henrietta and Henry) mirror one another (cf. Brian above)
3. ...
I'll post more soon, if I feel like it. :)
Great site Gix!
And all compliments for the translations of Gix's site should go to AGB, who did 99,99999% of the hard work.
Just finished the book - fairly confused.
Reading the site her a thought struck me. What if the baptism record was not of John. It could be a genuine record of a child who did die very young. John was then the product of Mary and Martin, born in 1813. This would explain the uncertainty of the birth date.
I think the baptism record is definitely John's given that Martin and Mary both signed their names to it and it also refers to Peter Clothier. I do not think that extra records were lying around Advowson's office for use by other parties. Whether the record was actually made in 1812 or 1813 is the outstanding issue. Several facts point to 1812, others to 1813. For the record to have been made in 1813, but dated 1812, it would have to be a forgery. If so, then it is likely that Martin bribed Advowson and/or intimidated him with his connections to the Mompessons. If Advowson was bribed, it would explain his generally nervous, squirmy behavior whenever he sees John. (I imagine he would also suspect that John was born out of wedlock, which being an early 19th century Englishman, he would also be uncomfortable discussing with John.)
Anyone still out there?
If so, I just wanted to explore the possibility that Martin is the murderer of John Huffam. The most important insinuation that this is the case is when Mary writes in her journal that she could not bear to think that the father of her child had killed her Papa. This statement is ambiguous, as it could refer to Peter Clothier as well, but it does at least plant the idea that Martin was the murderer if you believe Martin is the father of John, as many of us do.
Mary provides an even more ambiguous piece of information about Martin when she describes his appearance at the inn after her father's murder. She states that Martin gives her a look that she could not read. What does this look mean? Does it mean simply that Martin is unsure of how to break the news of John Huffam's death to Mary? Or is he acting strangely because he knows that now he can have Mary to himself? Or is it that besides having Mary, he is acting strangely because he has killed Huffam, his "brother" from childhood?
I don't know, but I have always found Martin's description of himself during Huffam's murder to be a little self-serving. I find it very hard to place him exactly in the house. What of Martin's family connection to Jeoffrey Escreet? I find it interesting that father and son are both in the house the night of the murder. I know that they are supposed to hate each other, but could it be possible that blood relation triumphs over all and that one covers up the circumstances of the murder for the benefit of the other?
If Martin brought the will into the house from the Mompessons, he could just as easily be the one to take it back. I suppose Escreet is a more likely candidate for the murder, but I can't help finding Martin's behavior puzzling.
Any thoughts?
BAC, to me the main pb with Martin murder, is that he has no reason to kill John. Moreover he has not the profil for a murderer (as he is described by other charachters).
Who gets a benefit for this crime ? Thats is the question.
I do think that Escreet is the most likely person to have murdered Huffam, but I am fascinated with Martin's character and just wanted to speculate about his possible connections to the crime.
As for reasons to kill Huffam, how about this: Martin hated Huffam because Huffam prevented him from having Mary. Huffam insulted Martin by saying that he was too old for Mary and then later insulted his choice of Jemima as his wife, saying insulting things about her character in particular. (Isn't it funny that Martin's legal father had also married a woman much younger than himself?)
Then, Huffam invites Martin to the wedding night dinner party to obtain the will and use him as a witness to the faked quarrel. Think of how Martin must feel when he arrives at the Huffam home: He believes that his oldest friend, his "brother", has invited him to his home to reconcile only to discover that Mary, (who he might be in love with), has just married, and to a son of Silas Clothier! I think that it was quite possible that Martin was enraged by Huffam's conduct. Whether he was enraged enough to murder Huffam, I don't know.
I am also fascinated by the fact that Escreet is Martin's father. Is it possible that they conceived the plot to kill Huffam together? If not, is it possible that one of them carried out the murder and the other, after the fact, aided in a cover up to protect the other? You know, blood is thicker than water?
My problem with this hypothesis is that Martin is never described as a kind of person able to commit a murder. On the contrary he is described as a very fair and honest man (see Lydia's opinion).
No doubt he was in love with Mary and John refuse the wedding, but how can this be a reason to kill John ? And finally he found a young women to mary witrh (Jemina).
Yes he did felt betrayed about the 2nd will (but did he really understand everythings during this diner ?). But is it more coming from the Lydia's plot. And finally, even if he is on the Mompesson
side, John is his "almost brother" too....
I am quite sure he is aware that J.Escreet is his biological father but what his father have told him about Escreet ?
So I completly agree there is an agrement between father and son after the murder to accuse Peter. Also, the John attitude has may be help him to not denounce Peter.
I am unconfortable to believe Martin would have build the all plot against Peter. Guess he was more driven by this evening events.
But OK, Martin as murderer is a possible hypothesis anyway as there is nothing in the novel thats clearly state that he is innocent. Moreover I like the symetry :
- Escreet (Martin's father) kills J.Umphraville (J.Huffam father)
- Martin (Escreet son) kills J.Huffam (J.Umphraville son)
The fathers of the 6th quincunx element kill the sons of the regular 5th quincunx element.
Can anyone explain why Jemima describes being puzzled by Escreet's business with the two keys (122)? If she's making this up to goad Escreet into revealing the will, why does she make up such an odd sequence of events? If she saw it, why did Escreet go to all that trouble? Palliser's putting in two front doors (vestibule-door and street-door) suggests some scheme by which an intruder might have got in or out by using spare keys (we know Henry had one, for example), but I can't work out how this might actually work.
Another small point about the apparent contradiction between John asking Escreet to leave the plate-room while John opened the strong-box, and Escreet's knowing where the key was hidden in Chapter 122. It's possible either that Escreet knew the location of the key without John knowing, or that when Escreet killed John, he found the key and its hiding place visible.
It sounds logical Jemina said she was puzzled by Escreet attitude. She wasnt aware of the trap for Peter, and she should find all that very strange. I guess she invents other parts of the story to push Escreet to confess, but not the "keys game" part.
I think the doors are 1 on front and 1 on the back.
But Jemima is still puzzled, in Chapter 122, by Escreet's business with the keys: "'...I was still perplexed by your conduct. Won't you tell me now?' There was a silence. Then she went on...", whereas she by then understands that the point of locking the front doors and the back-door is to trap Peter in the house, as she explains immediately after that quotation.
There are certainly two doors at the front, and one at the back. The vestibule- and street-door are mentioned immediately before the quotation above, and the back-door immediately after.
I haven't contributed for some time but I thought I'd make a couple of points which I don't think have been raised before.
It arises from the Afterword. In discussing the structure of the novel, the author states that there is a hole in the middle of the middle section of the middle chapter of the middle book of the middle part, in other words in the middle of chapter 63. The hole is the gap in Mary's narrative where the pages were torn out (Christmas Day 1822), and obviously it is this gap in John's knowledge which deepens the mystery. The problem is that the gap occurs in chapter 61! Now this strikes me as a glaring discrepancy, firstly because it is hard to credit that the author made such an elementary error, and secondly because it is not even in the novel itself. Could the author deliberately have been adding to the confusion, or was he hinting at something more subtle? Unfortunately not all contributors will have access to the Afterword, but comments from those who do will be of interest.
Hmmm ... my first reply seems to have vanished.
Brian is right - but there perhaps two ways of understanding "hole". It's true that the missing pages of Mary's narrative are referred to in Chapter 61, and thus are off-center by two chapters. But it's also true that Mary's narrative of the wedding night is then read by Johnnie in Chapter 63, at the very center of the entire 125-chapter book.
The Chapter 61 "hole" is maddening, as the elision suggests that Mary had there revealed - and then destroyed - an account of whom Johnnie's father really was.
But the Chapter 63 "hole" is even more puzzling, and a thus an appropriate pivot for the entire tale. Mary there recounts, in detail, the wedding day and night: but without the slightest hint of how Johnnie could possibly have been conceived, if he was truly the son of Mary and Peter. "The dog that didn't bark". so to speak.
AGB
On the Frecnh translation it is said in the adscript that the burned pages are in the exact middle of the "mary's condession" not in the middle of the book (chap 63). And it seems right when rereading the chap 61.
It is said however that the author will hide the Johnnie's father info in the chap 63 relating the wedding night (as AGB states)
On the Frecnh translation it is said in the adscript that the burned pages are in the exact middle of the "mary's confession" not in the middle of the book (chap 63). And it seems right when rereading the chap 61.
It is said however that the author will hide the Johnnie's father info in the chap 63 relating the wedding night (as AGB states)
Who did Lydia's parents try to force her to marry (Chapter 99)? Could it have been Silas Clothier?
I just wanted to throw an idea out here. I haven't even looked into it to see if it's plausible in any way, so please feel free to shoot it down.
It has always bothered me that we have no information about Mary's mother, not even have a name. It seems odd that Palliser, who created dozens of characters in the Quncunx, would just decide to leave out Mary's mother altogether. I think that this may be Palliser's way of directing us to take a closer look at Mary's parentage. Here is my idea: What if Mary is really John Huffam's much younger sister/half-sister and not his daughter? It would explain the absence of Mary's mother and why she is never spoken about. I have no idea who Mary's parents would be. James Huffam and Eliza Umphraville are possible, but it could be someone else altogether. I just think there has to be something here.
Sounds interesting, BAC. I don't have the book with me, but doesn't Lydia refer to James and Eliza as "your grandparents", when explaining some family history to Johnnie? Johnnie, as narrator, explains that she must have meant "great-grandparents", but it's the sort of mistake that attracts attention in this context.
Thank you, Simon, for pointing out yet another of the inconsistencies in the narratives in the novel. As I have stated before, I do not believe that John ever worked out all the things that had happened before he was born, even when he reached mature years. There are quite a few hints throughout that the whole tangled skein of events is not capable of being unravelled. One point I'd like to make that has not been mentioned before is about the statue in the Wilderness in Mary's house in Melthorpe. The 'ego' in the Latin inscription refers to death, as in the famous painting, which is very apposite considering the role of the statue in the duel when Escreet killed John Umphraville. Also interesting is John's admission that his recollection had been at fault about the precise wording of the inscription, which might be a hint that some of his other recollections may not be as reliable as he believes. Finally, I'd like to wish everybody a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year in 2008.
And Happy Holidays to all from unseasonably warm New York City too.
Of course, being a Quincunx devotee leads one to have a suspicious turn of mind! Is Brian wishing us Merry Christmas for an - unspoken - 2007 and Happy New Year for the forthcoming 2008? Or, as a more complex reading might suggest, the Merry Christmas referred to is also 2008 - and we are being pointed, "dog that didn't bark" style, to something mysterious about the unmentioned Christmas 2007. What are we to make of this 2007 gap at the end (for which read "year end") of Brian's narrative?
Sheesh - once Palliser gets under your skin......
AGB
heading off now for a little festive medication.
I admit that there is not much evidence to support my idea that Mary is John Huffam's sibling, but I cannot accept that Palliser just could not be bothered to come up with a history for Mary's mother. There has to be something there.
Also, if Eliza Umphraville were Mary's mother, it would make her cries for her mother at her death all the more ironic, given that Eliza is most likely Lashing Lizzie.
I confess I was very skeptical of the Eliza / Lizzie / maybe Mary's mother.... thesis - until I re-read the sections (while I was translating Gix's French site into English. And, re-reading, it's hard to think Palliser is *not* up to something very complex with Lizzie and her dealings with Mary. And Mary's lack of a mentioned mother is indeed most peculiar.
That said, there are two episodes in the book that always stick out to me as well-developed incidents / characters that have nothing to do with the rest of the book (both have been discussed here before): the lady and her son who rob Mary and Johnnie of their possessions on arrival in London; and the short episode of the man who, shortly after, meets Johnnie and Mary in the streets and perhaps (probably) solicits sex from Mary.
I mention those as some "evidence" that Palliser *could* perhaps drop vivid scenes into the plot just for immediate effect, rather than by way of deep and mysterious connection with other themes.
AGB
One should also bear in mind that the novel as it stands is considerably shorter than originally written. In the original draft these episodes might have had more bearing on the rest of the book.
Brian makes a good point. It would be lovely to think that, when cuts are necessary, everything remaining is still tied up neatly and deliberately. But life - and deadlines - tends not to be like that. I used to work in live theater, and I can remember two "loose end" incidents (and I think they are way more common in the movie editing process...). In a musical I did in the UK, there was an elaborate joke about the artist Marc Chagall, the point of which was to reveal the philistine ignorance of a main character by having an aid deliver the punchline "But the painter is dead, Mr Palace!". Only, as I noticed when reading the Sunday newspaper at a final rehearsal, he wasn't - it was his 90th birthday that very day. So the Director just cut the punch-line, leaving a set-up to nowhere...
Similarly, in a production of "Annie" which had (just why, I can't recall!) an elaborate joke about cheese, with the punch line "But the rind was orange!" (well .. you had to be there!). For assorted reasons all the set-up was cut from the script, but the punchline was left in and repeatedly sung by the chorus of kids .. Most mysterious to any audience I would have thought: "Hey honey, why where those kids saying 'the rind was orange.....' at the end of Act I?"
AGB
Hi,
I agree with AGB that it is certainly possible that the identity of Mary's mother may only be an unexplained loose end, but after the murder of John Huffam, I personally find the issue of Mary's parentage to be the most intriguing enigma of the Quincunx.
I am actually traveling for the holidays, so I do not have access to my copy of the book at the moment, but wasn't it suggested that Eliza and Hugo Mompesson had an affair? I know that others think that the product of this affair is John Huffam and that Mary would probably be too young to be the daughter of any of the other male characters that we know of, but the idea of Eliza being Mary's mother still intrigues me.
Some information that could count in favor of Eliza being Mary's mother is that we know she was very young when she took up with James Huffam and thus would have likely retained her physical attractiveness for a significant period of time, allowing her to continue to seduce men after James' death and, presumably, bear children. Also, like Mary's mother, Eliza is never heard from again after the death of James Huffam, at least as far as Mary knows.
It would also be extremely ironic if both Eliza and Mary descended to prostitution later in their lives.
A significant flaw with my idea is why would John Huffam not only adopt a sister/half-sister, but also choose to make her his heir? If he were desperate for an heir, which he most likely was, why would he not secretly adopt a male child as his heir? Much the way we speculate he was himself secretly adopted by James and Eliza.
Interesting. few comments :
- Eliza as Mary's mother. I cannot believe it. I admit this is strange why have no info about Mary's mother, but why Eliza ? Does it brings something to the all novel ? Did I forget something or it is told that Mary's mother died when she was about 4 yo ?
- Latin under statue in Melthorpe. Why you said it refres to "death" ? Could you develop (sry my latin is far). I feel also there is something to pick with this latin sentence. Up to now I thought this just refers to the whole story and some personnal charachters story like Escreet or Johnnie(see:
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/gix/quincunx/quin_je.htm)
One more things regarding the 2 incidents AGB pointed out :
I guess it is also possible this is just to support this unsecure 19th century atmosphere. Candid ppl from country arriving in large city are easy victims for wild urban world.
Gix, "Et In Arcadia Ego" (found in slightly various forms, but with those words) is a title used by Poussin in a couple of pastoral paintings set in an "Arcady" or "Paradise": in each perfect scene, death lurks, and the Latin (which is sort of derived from a similar phrase and intent used by Virgil) means, "Even in Paradise, Here I, Death, Am".
At first Johnnie mis-reads or mis-recalls the phrase as "Et in Arcadia Nemo", which would mean, literally, "There is Nobody Even in Paradise", which is a tad mysterious....
AGB
nb, I don't have my Quincunx here: the Latin may be "Et Nemo in Arcadia"; but word-order has little impact on meaning in Latin
As I have been thinking about Eliza Umphraville a lot the past few days, I have also begun to consider her brother, John. It is not a bold statement to say that John Umphraville is one of the more enigmatic characters in the book, even more so than his sister.
A few quick thoughts:
Does anyone else think that John, much like his sister, was some sort of giggolo/prostitute? He was the lover of Lydia Mompesson and we all know that Lydia is described as a strange, homely creature. It does seem odd that such an odd young woman could attract a lover. We are not given a physical description of Umphraville, but I think we can guess that he might bear some of the same physical attractiveness as his sister. Was Umphraville, like Eliza, trying to sleep his way into a great family?
I know this is completely baseless speculation, but am I the only one that has thought that Upmhraville was his Eliza's pimp? That is, he somehow knew James Huffam and his tastes and made sure to introduce him to Eliza, in much the same way that Thomas Delameter served David Mompesson.
I also think it is odd that Lydia disparages Eliza as a "fast" girl, but really has nothing to say about John's moral character. Perhaps she is leaving out some unpleasant information that she has heard about her poor, doomed lover, but chooses not to believe.
I have always found the phrase "Umphraville is avenged" which Bellringer and Escreet use at the end of the book to be very mysterious. It is so completely obvious that Escreet killed Umphraville as he was about to marry into a great family and that Umphraville's death is thus avenged by the death of Bellringer, who similarly is about to marry Henrietta and take control of the entire estate, that I wonder if there is a little more to this phrase than first meets the eye. Any thoughts?
Could it possibly mean that the Upmhravilles were not merely a brother sister team of wastrels, but had conceived a plan, much like Escreet/Bellringer, to obtain the entire Hougham/Mompesson estate? If Umphraville had married Lydia, he presumably may have been able to control the Mompesson estate himself at some point, and the Hougham estate through his sister.
Why is it Jeoffrey Huffam who orders Escreet to put an end to the marriage plan anyway? Why aren't the Mompessons also anxious to prevent Lydia from marrying a possible adventurer like Umphraville?
Any thoughts would be very much appreciated.
In reply to BAC: I think we're not really sure whether Eliza and Hugo Mompesson had an affair. In chapter 98, Lydia says "His sister... that is to say. My father. In short...", but when she expands on this in chapter 99, she doesn't refer to Hugo. Lizzie says she had an affair with a baronet's son, which Hugo was, as Escreet indirectly ssys in chapter 88. But Mary could be the daughter of Eliza/Lizzie by some entirely unknown man, and John could have adopted her as his heir partly because he had no children himself, and partly because she was a blood relative.
In reply to Gix: Mary was told that her mother died when Mary was very young. But that explanation would have saved a lot of embarrassment if Mary's mother had been Eliza/Lizzie.
In reply to BAC's later post: I think "Umphraville is avenged" partly means "Umphraville is avenged on his killer, Escreet, by the killing of Escreet's great-grandson, in almost the same circumstances", as I think you're saying. But in chapter 122, Escreet first says, of Bellringer, "Killed! Killed by a Mompesson!", and then, after Sancious says something else, continues "So Umphraville is avenged". This sounds as though there is more symmetry in the vengeance than in my paraphrase - that Umphraville was killed by a Mompesson. That could be essentially true if a Mompesson paid Escreet to make sure that Umphraville was killed, just as you suggest. And Escreet shortly afterwards says "[Jeoffrey] was angry that I had failed to prevent James' wedding to his harlot. And that I had killed Umphraville", which does raise the question of why Escreet didn't do as Jeoffrey seems to have wanted. If Escreet had taken Mompesson money, that might help to explain his sense of guilt.
Simon,
Thank you for your thoughtful comments to my previous posting.
I also wonder if "Umphraville is avenged" might refer to Lydia Mompesson. After all, the murder of her fiancee, Umphraville, is finally avenged by another Mompesson, David. To put it more abstractly, the murder of a man affianced to a Mompesson is avenged by a Mompesson.
One more thing about the character of Umphraville and Lydia. Although she is ancient by the end of the book, we should not forget that she entered into a covert affair with Umphraville that most likely ended in pregnancy. Not exactly proper behavior for an aristocratic young woman at the time. Also, it is not the more well-to-do James Huffam that duels Escreet, but Umphraville. Although I am sure duels were common at the time, this also suggests a possible unsavory side to Umphraville. A seducer and a duellist. Not exactly the picture of ideal young love Lydia would have us believe.
It is interesting that Escreet and Umphraville, the two young strivers, fight it out while the aristocrats look on.
Finally, just a thought, is it possible that Anna Mompesson's cries of "My son! My son!" actually might refer to Umphraville?
Yes, BAC, the end of my post doesn't make sense at all. For "Killed by a Mompesson! [...] So Umphraville is avenged" to make sense as I suggested, Umphraville's death must have offended, not benefitted, one or more Mompessons. Escreet might well be thinking of Lydia, or perhaps of her immediate family who have to deal with her illegitimate pregnancy.
One other point about Umphraville's behaviour to Lydia. I think we don't know for sure whether Hugo's attempt to make Lydia marry a man she loathed started before or after Umphraville was killed. If Umphraville's poverty was one obstacle to the match, then perhaps Hugo had a richer husband in mind (Silas Clothier?), and had already suggested this to Lydia when she met Umphraville, just as Mary is later presented first with Daniel, but subsequently comes to prefer Peter. That would motivate Lydia's attraction to Umphraville. On the other hand, Hugo might just have been trying to find a husband for Lydia so as to conceal the illegitimacy of her pregnancy.
Just a thought to come back to Mary's mother.
Of course we can imagine with no limits all sort of situation. Just keep in mind that for all, Palliser always gave some clues (even if it is somtimes unclear). Regarding Mary's mother i cannot remember where in the book with have a clue or some detail about her.
I think Joeffrey didnt care about John Umphraville, he just cares about Eliza, hoping she will never enter the family. Hugo may be thought the same (how could he approves a wedding between his daughter and his ex-lover brother)? More important Umphraville family was probably not rich enough.
Just to be clear, Gix, I agree with you that there are really no clues to the identity of Mary's mother and Palliser usually drops at least a few hints about some of the more obscure mysteries encountered in the Quincunx. The most significant clue regarding Mary's mother is a negative one, i.e, we have no information about a mother, which seems strange in a book that presents such an elaborate family tree at its end.
The only other clue that we have regarding Mary's mother is that Lashing Lizzie and Eliza Umphraville appear to be the same person and she is prezent at Mary's death when Mary cries out "Mama!" This is the type of information that Palliser usually presents when hinting at a possible solution to a mystery. However, while it is quite plausible to argue that Eliza/Lizzie is Mary's grandmother, I admit it is a bit of a stretch to argue, based upon the information that we are given, that she is Mary's mother. On the other hand, we are still left with the fact that Mary cries out for her mother when Lizzie is present, which, knowing Palliser's methods, cannot be dismissed as insignificant.
OK, I read this part again. I have to admit I completly forgotten that strange last cry.
Well, one thing for sure is that Eliza is Mary grandmother (even if John is the son of Lydia) and as his mother died soon, she should have spent time to raise her (may be Mary could have considered her as his mother). In that case, it is understandable, near to the death, mixing a lot of thing, in presence of a very old woman called lizzie, she screams for her?
On the other hand, there is a problem of age. Eliza should be very old to biologically get a children as young as Mary?
Funny to still found out this kind of questionnement in this book!
Gix, or Leon or anyone else,
Could you quote the chapter references for anything that is related to the Assinder, Fortisquince, Feverview relationship to Johnnie...
I want to explore this in detail.
Thx
Glad to oblige, Michael! At the beginning of chapter 48, page 330 in the American hardback edition, John mentions the name Feverfew on the Huffam tomb, which indicates the possibility of kinship. Oddly enough, the next name is Limbrick, which occurs in The Unburied. At page 557, chapter 86, George Digweed states that his great-uncle was a gifted stone-mason called Feverfew, which might be taken to hint at a distant relationship between John and the Digweeds.
And as for Johnnie's relation to Assinder:
1. see Ch. 76, when Perceval Mompesson states (or rather Silverlight has Mompesson stating) that Assinder is "the nevy of the man who served me and my father for forty years!" (657, US pocket ed.) - i.e. the father of Martin Fortisquince (who just might be Johnnie's father).
2. see Ch. 95, when Bob says to Nellie that Percival Mompesson is "wery partial" to Assinder, "on account of his uncle, the steward that was" (822, US pocket ed.).
Thank you Brian and Leon.
Ok! Assinder's relationship to Fortisquince is clear. Now we need a good reference for the Feverfew to Assinder connection.
Feverfew:
With the Chap. 48 mention of Feverfew on the old Huffam family vault, it's worth having in mind that Johnnie says the most recent date thereon was 1614, putting that particular Feverfew - Huffam connection at least 200 years previously.
Also, shortly after George Digween (Chap. 86) recalls his Great-Uncle Feverfew as a good stone-mason, Miss Lydia tells John (Chap 99, p. 658) that it was a Feverfew (presumably the same one) who had carved the famous stone states in Huffam Park.
AGB
"And as for Johnnie's relation to Assinder:
1. see Ch. 76, when Perceval Mompesson states (or rather Silverlight has Mompesson stating) that Assinder is "the nevy of the man who served me and my father for forty years!" (657, US pocket ed.) - i.e. the father of Martin Fortisquince (who just might be Johnnie's father)."
By "the father of Martin Fortisquince" I meant, of course, the Mompesson-steward D. Fortisquince - the husband of Martin F.'s mother - and NOT Martin F.'s biological father, Jeoffrey Escreet.
And as for the references to a connection between Assinder and Feverfew which Michael is looking for: I don't think there is any direct textual evidence, but it seems beyond question that Assinder's uncle (D. Fortisquince), as the steward of the Hougham and later Mompesson estate, must have known the famous stone-mason Feverfew, who sculpted the statues in the quincunx of trees in the park.
So we don't see a connection that was mentioned somewhere above:
Digweed - Feverfew - Assinder - Fortisquince
rather we see:
Digweed - Feverfew - Huffam,
based on Feverfew being buried in the Huffam crypt! (pointed out by Brian)
So the question becomes: How usual or unusual was it for a non relative to be interred in the family crypt of the upperclass, in the period 1500 - 1750 or so?
Waddaya mean "non-relative"? :) The Feverfews could very well have been relatives of the Houghams/Huffams. A female Hougham/Huffam could have married a Feverfew and taken his name, after all...
It's always been interesting to me that Palliser named his internal book divisions for the Quincunx of Great Families: Huffam, Mompesson, Clothier, Palphramond and Maliphant. Yet there is a crucial Sixth Family Element too - the Digweeds. I've long thought that the Digweeds have out-of-wedlock family connections to the Big Five - but it's also possible, via the Feverfew mentions, that the connection was, at one time, wholly legitimate. The Huffams and Feverfews seem to have been related back in the 17th century (like Leon, that's how I interpret the tomb mention); by the 19th it's the Digweeds and Feverfews. But, like so much else in the book, I'm very uncertain of the significance of all this, if any...... One point of interest - Feverfew is not given in Palliser's own Index of Names at the end of the book. Again, significant, or not?
AGB
Leon,
I am trying to say with my question: Does
the fact that Feverfew is buried in the Huffam crypt imply that he was a relative?
If the custom of the time, was only to bury relatives in the family crypt, then we could deduce that Feverfew was a relative( with Palliser like certainty!). Then the connection of the Digweeds to John would be established.
I definitely think that the Digweeds are distant relations of the Houghams through the Feverfews. This makes me wonder about the maiden name of George and Barney's mother. I suspect she might be a Feverfew, but also possibly and illegitimately a Hougham or Mompesson.
On a tangent, doesnt the Umphraville family allegedly come from the same area as the Houghams, Mompessons, and Feverfews? About how many villages are there around Hougham? It's something like five isn't it? Umphraville, five villages, hmmm.
Yet another tangent, has it ever bothered anyone else that, at the top of the family tree at the end of the book, it actually places all of the characters under the name of Maliphant and not the Hougham?
Leon,
Please tell me where you find the name
D. Fortisquince mentioned. I can only find
Mr. Fortisquince as Huffum's Land Agent?
Thx
BAC,
Great point about Maliphant on top of Henry Huffam in the tree!!! It never bothered me before, because I never noticed it! Have to review Esceet's histories again.
In response to Michael:
If my memory serves me right the initials Johnnie finds in the books on land management in the library in the Fortisquince's cottage in Melthorpe (somewhere in the early chapters) are D.F.
I take it these refer to the husband of Martin Fortisquince's mother.
In response to BAC and his question about the villages surrounding Hougham:
I don't think Umphraville is explicitly mentioned anywhere in the novel as the name of a village. Umphraville isn't among the names of the ancient families connected with place names Johnnie sees in the church in Melthorpe in one of the early chapters. Delamater, though, is.
Leon,
I am not suggesting that there is a village named Umphraville near Melthorpe/Hougham. I am only observing that, at some point, some of the other villages around Melthorpe are mentioned, such as Stoke Mompesson (sic?). I think the number of villages may add up to five. I take Umphraville to mean "Five Villages" or "Five Towns". "Umphra" for five and "ville" for village or town. I think this suggests that the Umphravilles may come from the same area or villages around Hougham. In fact, as it is mentioned at some point in the book that the Umphravilles are an ancient family, I think it is possible that they were the feudal landlords of the country around Hougham at some point in the ancient, ancient past. Perhaps the Houghams are also upstarts, much as the Mompessons are perceived to be.
I just wanted to point out that, a propros of nothing, Maliphant most likely means "Mal Enfant" or "Bad Child" in French.
I have had very long, tedious days at work the past week, so please forgive me for posting so frequently, it keeping me from getting completely bored.
I have just thought of a theory regarding John Huffam's murder and a possible connection to Martin Fortsiquince:
I think we all agree that the Digweeds are related to the Houghams through the distant relative of Feverfew. We also know that at certain points in his youth Barney Digweed spent some time at Hougham, working in the masonry field with his brother, most likely when he needed to hide out from the law. (Masonry as the Digweed family trade was presumably handed down through the Feverfews.) Barney had no interest in masonry but what is important for our purposes is that he did spend some time in Hougham and, possibly, got to know a few people there. It seems possible to me that he (and George Digweed for that matter) got to know Fortisquinec senior and possibly Martin Fortisquince himself. At the very least, I think that it is possible MF came to know of Barney threw his father or someone else connected to the Hougham estate and its surrounding lands. Perhaps MF got to know Barney then or got to know him at some later point. At any rate, here's the idea: MF made note of Barney and years later, when he conceived of the idea of murdering John Hougham, hired Barney to do it. To me, this theory explains why Escreet denies murdering JH, i.e., he didn't do it and wanted to protect his son. This theory also accounts for Barney and Jemima's enigmatic silence on JH's death when Johnny questions them at the end of the book. Barney might not want to admit to the murder anyway, but certainly not in front of the wife of the man who commissioned it. Jemima, if she knows, also may not want to say anything to Johnny out of a twisted sense of love for Martin. I know she tells Johnny that "his father" did not murder JH, but that is all she tells him, i.e., she does not say "and he did not hire anyone to do it either."
This is only a theory that I have had some fun playing around with while at work today and I freely admit that I have no proof at all to back it up. However, I thought the rest of you might find it interesting and it might spark some debate.
So, have at it!
Regarding the Maliphant name appearing above Huffam in the family tree:
It was common, although not always consistantly, that the family would take the name of the eldest offspring, as opposed to the heir's name. If the eldest offspring happened to be a female the family would take the name of the husband of the eldest offspring, in Huffams case Laetitia's husband Maliphant.
I believe this is the explanation why the family is titled, The Maliphants.
Michael,
I like what you've come up with to explain why all the families fall under the name of Maliphant in the family tree.
Just a few other notes about my wacky theory regarding Barney, Hougham, and the Fortisquinces. I haven't read the Quincunx cover to cover since last summer, but as far as I recall, it does seem extremely coincidental that Barney would just stop by Martin's home in Melthorpe at the beginning of the book. I think Barney knows Hougham and the surrounding villages very well and it is quite possible that he knew that he was stopping at the Fortisquince house. Perhaps the Fortisquinces had extended him some kindnesses years before and he was looking for food and shelter or perhaps he just wanted to break into the house. Or perhaps, more sinisterly, he was sent there by Martin to take the codicil from Mary. I don't know, but what I like about my theory is that it really connects Barney with quite a few characters. It might also flesh out Barney's relationship with Sancious and Jemima.
All I know is that I am going to get out my copy of the book again soon and read it all in just a few days and make copious notes.
"The Maliphants" occurs at the top of the family tree at the end of Part 5 only because that's the title of Part 5 - check the family trees at the ends of the other Parts.
Funny, so much for my research and fancy explanation.....good point Simon!!!
Today is the 196th anniversary of the birth of Charles Dickens and John Huffam. Just thought I should mention it.
Lol, good point !!
Wow, what a read your thread here! I have just finished the book and thought I have a look for some hints online. Especially the authors afterword made me think about the hidden narrative of Illegitimacy and mental illness that runs though the book.
One puzzling thing I have come across that I have not seen mentioned. In the final chapter after Jemima and John have left the scene of Mr Sancious murder, Barney catches up with them and tries to murder John . In the ensuing conversation between him and Jemima Sancious he calls her "mum". Either that is meant to be a slang pronunciation of the word "mam" or is it a hint at another connection. She does not seem old enough to be his mother...any thoughts???
Oh, and just in case you guys are interested: My research also brought up a chapter in another book that explores the narratives in the Quincunx. The chapter is called "Mirror Games and Hidden Narratives in The Quincunx" by Susana Onega. The book is called "Theme Parks, Rainforests and Sprouting Wastelands: European Essays on Theory and Performance in Contemporary British fiction" (Strange title - but it is just a collection of essays)
You can actually read part of the above mentioned chapter as a preview to the book - I found it by typing martin fortisquince in at google books, and then previewing it. Or try the link!
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=B1amyMDNfmQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=martin+fortisquince#PPA165,M1
She has a very definite,but convincing point on many of the mysteries discussed here.
Thanks for that link, Lea! If anybody's interested, here's a list (incomplete in some places) of other scholarly articles on The Quincunx that I've compiled over the years:
Letissier, Georges, ‘Dickens and Post-Victorian Fiction,’ in: Onega, Susana & Christian Gutleben (eds.), Postmodern Studies: Refracting the Canon in Contemporary British Literature and Film, 35 (Amsterdam & New York: Rodopi, 2004), 111-128.
Martínez Alfaro, Maria Jesús, ‘Text and Intertexts in Charles Palliser’s The Quincunx,’ (Postgraduate research paper, Universidad de Zaragoza, 1995).
Martínez Alfaro, Maria Jesús, ‘Narration-Parody-Intertextuality: Rewriting the Past in Charles Palliser’s The Quincunx,’ in: Miscelánea: A Journal of English and American Studies, 18 (1997), 193-212.
Martínez Alfaro, Maria Jesús, ‘When the Symbol Swerves: Spatial Designs and Meaning-Slides in Charles Palliser’s The Quincunx,’ in: Symbolism, 5 (2003), …-…
Martínez Alfaro, Maria Jesús, Narrative Strategies in Charles Palliser’s The Quincunx, The Sensationist, and Betrayals, (Ph.D. thesis, Universidad de Zaragoza, 2003).
Onega, Susana, ‘The Symbol Made Text: Charles Palliser’s Postmodernist Re-Writing of Dickens in The Quincunx,’ in: Revista Alicantina de Estudios Ingleses, 6 (1993), 131-42.
Onega, Susana, ‘Charles Palliser,’ in: Post-War Literatures in English: A Lexicon of Contemporary Authors, 19 (Groningen: Bohn Stafleu Van Loghum & Wolters-Nordhoff, 1993).
Onega, Susana, ‘An Obsessive Writer’s Formula: Subtly Vivid, Enigmatically Engaging, Disturbingly Funny and Cruel. An Interview with Charles Palliser,’ in: Atlantis, 15 (1993), 269-84.
Onega, Susana, ‘Textual Selves / Worlds and the Treacherous Nature of Writing: A Misreading of Charles Palliser’s Betrayals,’ in: Alfinge, 9 (1997), 315-32.
Onega, Susana, ‘Charles Palliser,’ in: Post-War Literatures in English: A Lexicon of Contemporary Authors, 35 (Groningen: Nijhoff, 1997).
Onega, Susana, ‘Mirror Games and Hidden Narratives in Charles Palliser’s The Quincunx,’ in: Todd, Richard & Luisa Flora (eds.), Theme Parks, Rainforests and Sprouting Wastelands: European Essays on Theory and Performance in Contemporary British Fiction (Amsterdam & New York: Rodopi, 1998), …-….
Hillis Miller, J., ‘Parody as Revisionary Critique: Charles Palliser’s The Quincunx,’ in: Onega, Susana & Christian Gutleben (eds.), Postmodern Studies: Refracting the Canon in Contemporary British Literature and Film, 35 (Amsterdam & New York: Rodopi, 2004), 129-148.
If John was killed by an intruder, I wonder whether Johnnie's movements as he enters the plate-room, in Chapter 122. Everything in the book seems to happen at least twice, and the plate-cupboard would be a natural place for the intruder to have lain in wait for John. I'm not sure if that gives any more hints as to what happened on that night, though.
Simon's observation is a good one. If there was an intruder, he might have gone into the plate-cupboard to avoid detection when he heard people making their way towards the plate-room, and he would have had surprise on his side when he attacked John Huffam. Hence Escreet would have been confused by the rapidity of events. Not a definitive solution, but worth considering.
Hi everybody, I'm new here and have been reading all your posts. Sorry for my spelling being a non-native speaker.Ciudad Rodrigo was taken by storm on the night of january 19 -20 1812, so maybe Johnnie was born on that night instead of 2 february 1812, or am I completly wrong ?Thanks for your reply!
Hi Rita,
I think the issue with Johnnie's birth is not whether it happened in January or February of 1812, but whether it happened in 1812 or 1813. Most evidence in the book suggests 1812, but there are subtle hints that it could be 1813. For instance, Hugo Mompesson makes note that Johnnie is very small for his age when he first meets Johnnie. There is also the curious behavior of Mr. Advowson toward Johnnie. He generally seems nevous around Johnnie and, when telling him of the circumstances surrounding the signature of Johnnie's baptismal record, suggests that Martin Fortisquince desired to declare himself to be Johnnie's father, which would make Johnnie illegitimate.
In general, if it were to be discovered that Johnnie were born in 1813, he could not be Peter Clothier's son and would thus would have no claim to either the Clothier or Huffam fortunes. I think this mystery remains unresolved at the end of the book.
Thanks BAC ! What a story ! I read the book quite recently and with all this questions still going round in my mind, I like to discuss about it , hoping to get some answers on all kind of questions, relevant or not, just out of curiosity. One of these questions is (don’t know if it is in any kind relevant, just something that I noticed) about Helen Quiliam : in chap. 22 : first meeting H.Q. with Johnnie (apparently not with Mary ?). Next Chap. 111 : Helen Q. says something like : … I went to Hougham and because of that I met you AND your mother AGAIN. Chap.38 : HQ is teaching in a school conducted by 2 sisters, and in chap.3 : Johnie walks by a school conducted by 2 old sisters. Does this mean that H.Q. saw little Johnnie and/or Mary before ?
By the way does anyone on this site know who killed John Huffam senior so I can sleep again ! :-)
Sorry again for my English !
Rita
The "school run by two sisters" issue is, I think, a genuine co-incidence, with Palliser perhaps just re-using a phrase, or image, that he liked. The school that little Johnnie passes in Chap. 3 is up in the north of England; in Chaps 37 and 38 Miss Quilliam makes it clear that she had lived, and a attended a "two sister's school", in far southern England, somewhere near Portsmouth and Southampton.
AGB
Rita, regarding the murder, nobody knows really.
There are more or less good possibilities, but palliser doesnt give his solution.
So keep sleeping well... :-)
The missing pages from Mary's pocket book almost certainly relate details concerning Johnnie's conception. As we are told that the passage begins at the time before John senior borrows money from Clothier ("I must first go back to what passed when Uncle Martin was trying to dissuade Papa from having anything to do with Mr. Clothier") and ends with the night of the wedding ("... that happened that night before we arrived at the inn at Hertford"), should we not assume that something happened between Martin and Mary, and that Johnnie was conceived, during this period?
Well...... It's true that Palliser leads readers in that direction, and I personally think it's more than likely that Martin, not Peter, was Johnnie's father (not that this makes any difference to Johnnie's legal status - he's presumptively the son and heir of Peter and Mary unless anyone can prove otherwise....). But Palliser twists and turns his tale, with inconsistencies, downright lies, misunderstandings and careful vagueness. As he alludes in his own post-script, it's possible that Johnnie could be the offspring of incest between Mary and her father John.....
The great difficulty is knowing when the act of conception took place. If *before* the marriage, then the only real possible (however unlikely) fathers are Martin, Peter, John Snr or Mr Escreet. If Mary was a virgin at marriage, then really only Peter and Martin are possible. But even then, Peter's opportunities for sexual congress with his new wife before his arrest are enormously limited, and perhaps scarcely possible at all. If the father is Martin, we have to suppose that Mary - her father murdered, her new husband arrested, mad - leaps straight into the sack with her father's erstwhile best friend..... Unless the baptismal date of Johnnie is indeed forged, and he was born rather more than 9 months after the marriage date......
Note that several of these instances - sexual relations with Martin either immediately after the wedding to Peter, or some time later - don't tie in neatly with the "missing pages". If after straight after the wedding, then why destroy the pages before the wedding? If some time after, then why destroy the "wedding" pages at all?
One question we never tackle directly - at what point in time did Mary become convinced that it was imperative to her family's inheritance hopes that she bear a child? I'm not sure we can answer that; but if we could, much would become clear.....
AGB
A very good summary of the possible identities of Johnnie's father, AGB. I also agree with you that if Martin is Johnnie's father, and if he and Mary got together after John Huffam's death, and Johnnie was born in 1813, then the missing pages would not necessarily be about Johnnie's parentage. I think that we will never know what was in those pages and that is the point Palliser is trying to make. There is no certainty in this world and some mysteries remain mysteries.
Regarding your point about Mary's conviction that she must have a child: I think she is concerned that she will lose the Huffam estate without a child, a male child in particular. If Mary were to inherit the Huffam estate on her own and is still married to Peter Clothier, the Clothiers (Silas and Daniel) would control the estate, as women at that time had no right to any property held commonly through marriage. The Clothiers would in effect inherit the Huffam estate if Mary inherits. Mary absolutely abhors this possibility and rightly so. A male child on the other hand has no such problem. He can take the estate outright when he is an adult. I think Mary's design was to wait until Johnnie comes of age and then make a claim for the estate. She’s more clever than we give her credit for, in my opinion.
Agreed, BAC. But *exactly when* does Mary come to these conclusions? Although this can be argued either way - as often in the book - my impression is that Mary did not hold these clear strategic views until the very cusp of the wedding, and perhaps not really until after. Therefore "someone" persuaded her of them at or about the very moments when she had her only opportunities to conceive a child. Did, following the wedding night murder, Martin take her aside and say "Mary, it is *vital* that you have a child in order to advance your now-dead father's dream", and offer himself in service? Had perhaps her father already made it clear to her that, although Martin had wanted to marry her, the really crucial thing in his plan was that she should have a Clothier male heir? And now, Martin himself offers the only chance of getting such (bearing in mind that, technically, it did not matter who the father was, provided Johnny was born in wedlock, and no-one could prove that Peter *wasn't* the father....).
As you say, many of life's mysteries are insoluble..... It is of course just possible - just barely - that Mary herself was not sure who Johnnie's father was........
So, in some ways Mary is "more clever", or at least more cynical. But was this cynicism of her own making (a la Jemima) or was it foisted on her by both her father and Martin. And, just as Mary may be "more clever", Martin is far more enigmatic, even downright selfish, than he's usually presented.
AGB
AGB,
Regarding Mary's motives and actions surrounding Johnnie's birth, here is my own personal, completely subjective opinion: Martin was definitely in love or lust with Mary before the wedding. After John Huffam is murdered, he comes to Mary at the inn where she is staying. This is where Palliser has Mary write about Martin "he gave me a look that I could not read." Here is my reading of that look: Martin, being older, wiser, and let's face it, a lawyer, understands Mary's situation far better than her at this point. He knows Peter will be blamed for the murder (perhaps because he is partly responsible for setting him up) and will no longer be a factor in Mary's life. Martin also knows that Mary is completely alone now and in grave danger from the Clothiers. Martin is essentially Mary's only friend in the world. While I do believe Martin cares for Mary, I think he also cynically realizes that she is at his mercy. He convinces Mary that she must get out of London because of the Clothiers and then decides to install her at his mother's house in Huffam. I do not think that Martin throws himself on Mary on the night of the murder, but bides his time and frequently visits Mary in Huffam over the next year. During the course of his visits, they begin an affair. Martin has always wanted Mary and she must feel incredibly isolated and alone. Ultimately, Mary becomes pregnant by Martin. When Martin and Mary go to the church to register Johnnie's birth, Martin offers to be listed as Johnnie's father on his birth certificate. He is, in effect, offering himself to Mary. Mary, most likely due to a sense of loyalty to her father, refuses Martin's offer and writes Peter's name on the certificate. I believe that after this moment, a bit of a rift developed between Martin and Mary. Martin has offered to declare himself Johnnie's father and Mary has turned him down. Martin returns to London and continues to support Mary due to a sense of obligation to her and Johnnie, but I think that at this point his visits start to taper off and he becomes involved with Jemima. At some point, most likely after Johnnie was born, Mary decided that pursuing her father's dream of the Huffam estate was more important than her relationship with Martin. Maybe she makes this decision because of loyalty to her father or maybe because she does not really love Martin. Whatever the reason, I do think that we see a certain naive ruthlessness to Mary's character in her pursuit of the Huffam estate. She may not really know how to make her father’s dream happen, but she loses everything in trying.
"I do not think that Martin throws himself on Mary on the night of the murder, but bides his time and frequently visits Mary in Huffam over the next year. During the course of his visits, they begin an affair."
The night of the murder is May 5, 1811; Johnnie is born on February 7, 1812. This leaves little time for Martin and Mary to begin an affair AND conceive Johnnie. (Unless you're in the '1813-camp'. Are you, BAC?)
In addition to the comment of Leon made today, I should like to add my opinion that John was conceived while Mary was still staying at the Blue Dragon in Hertford, because my reading of the text narrating John's brief visit there on his chase to the North to try to prevent the marriage of Henrietta and Henry Bellringer suggests that he was beginning to suspect his true parentage and that he had been conceived in that very room at the inn. Also it could be argued that Henrietta herself was impregnated there by Henry Bellringer. Thus we would have two seductions in the same room , both of girls either already married to or about to be married to men other than the seducer, and both times connected with the Huffam estate. Finally, I should like to say how good it is to see the discussion going again.
After reading the book and the comments here, some remarks/questions:
1. Johnnies rescue from the Asylum and upkeep with the Digweeds: in my opinion this is organised and financed by Mr Sancious and his new wife, mrs Jemima Maliphant-Fortisquince-Sancious. After Sancious'discovery that Jemima is the remaining Maliphant heir, he first sets off to ruin her financially (who said that about everything happening at least twice in this book?) by selling worthless bills to her, and then convinces her to marry him. Effectively, Sancious changes sides from Silas Clothier to the Maliphant heir. So it is in his interest that Johnnie stays alive until Silas Clothier dies.
2. Might it be that the experience of being defrauded and coerced offers some explanation to Jemima's sudden 'conversion'?
3. Any thoughts on the role of the beggar Justice and his dog Wolfe? In a sideline I read that he paid for his principles, because he became blind after his gang of revolutionaries was betrayed by one of their members. It is suggested that this betrayer was mr Silverlight, who's voice he recognises in their sole meeting (Silverlight behaves awkward during this meeting). What could be the meaning in the context of the story?
In response to Brian:
I'm with Brian here - even though I have argued along BAC's lines above (see my post of 30 September 2007) in order to account for Johnnie's small stature.
The symmetry in the two scenes at the Half-Moon (!)room at the Blue Dragon Inn in Hertfort (Mary/Martin in 1811 and Henrietta/Henry in the late 1820s) is compelling evidence, too, I think. Especially if you rephrase Brian's "both of girls either already married to or about to be married to men other than the seducer, and both times connected with the Huffam estate" into something like: "both Mary and Henrietta married - or in Henrietta's case under the impression of being about to get married - to a man they love (Peter and david respectively), but being at least partly coerced into conceiving a child with an offspring of Jeoffrey Escreet in order to keep the Huffam estate 'in the right hands'"
I'm intrigued by the 1813 birth-date possibility, which then opens up all sorts of more realistic possibilities for Martin and Mary to have leisurely sex. By contrast, the 1812 birthdate really does mean that conception must have taken place in a very, very narrow time-frame - under very bizarre circumstances.
But, it's equally true that I think that the 1812 birthdate is by far the more compelling choice.
Just a word again on Johnnie's legitimacy. If he's born in wedlock (and he is) he is regarded as the legitimate son of Mary and Peter *unless someone can prove otherwise for certain*. And the rule was that, if there's any way at all that Peter and Mary could have had sex in the 12 (not 9!) months prior to Johnnie's birth, the Peter is presumed to be the father, as he and Mary are man and wife. And "any way at all" means "if they were alone for even the briefest moment" (which they clearly were, several times). (And again, it's not for anyone to prove that they were alone; it's for an objector to prove that they absolutely could never have been......).
Note that, by my calculation, Johnnie is clearly legitimate by law if he's born in February 1812. If he's born in Feb. 1813, then we know that Mary had never - could never - have spent a moment alone with Peter, her husband, since May 1811. So Johnnie *could* be shown illegitimate. And that's why, even if the birth took place in 1813, Martin and Mary have to bribe Mr Advowson to insert - or imply - a date an entire year earlier. But that's an enormously high risk strategy - for they leave a fairly easy train of dishonesty for anyone to follow. Of, course, if that just happens to be when Johnnie is born, then Mary and Martin - if involved in a plot to have Johnnie seem the legitimate heir of Mary and Peter - have no choice but to find some way of making the backdating lie.
So, here's another proposal - and it's a perverse one! I half-suggested it a few days ago. What if, when Martin turns up at the inn, he straight away asks Mary if there is any way she could possibly be pregnant by Peter. Mary replies either a straight 'No', or a blushing 'maybe'. That 'maybe' could mean that Peter and Mary had "been intimate" before the wedding (unlikely in my view), or that there had been some dismal fumbling at the inn when Peter arrives there, distressed and confused, and remains for but a few moments. It's just imaginable - in that Victorian convention - that Mary doesn't fully understand how a conception actually takes place. Martin tells here - frankly and plainly - that it is utterly vital that she conceives a child, that she can never now do so with Peter unless she already has, and that therefore he, Martin, must try to impregnate her immediately....
Weird, I know. But possible?
AGB
Fascinating discussion. I've just finished a first reading and get the feeling it's a book that could easily take over your life...
A couple of things occurred to me when I finished regarding the problem of the central mystery.
The first one was whether there was an analogy between the solution found to the Mompesson safe combination and finding the 'solution' to the book. I wondered whether, instead of the central section of the central chapter of the central book being the key, it was rather the central sections of books 1,2,4 and 5 that were vital, these corresponding to the 'bolts' that are removed to open the safe, if you make the analogy between the 'quincunx of quincunxes' that structures the book and that bars the safe containing the will.
I was sorry to find this didn't 'open' any boxes for me, though it did make me realise how many different boxes, hiding places and thefts there are in the book.
Along the same line - kind of - there are elements in the novel that remind me of Poe, in particular the story of the purloined letter. The will is often described as being "purloined", and there's the recurrent motto/motif of "safety closest to danger", or "hiding in plain view".
These both suggest a more 'structuralist' approach to the mystery, or rather, trying to identify the key pattern or principle of how something is hidden rather than relying on thoroughness and details... unfortunately my copy doesn't contain the afterward and I would sorely like to read it!
If there have no contributions for two whole months, could one say that this topic is closed, or at the least, moribund? Maybe people are waiting for the author's new novel to appear.
MJM would certainly find the Afterword interesting because it gives the author's thoughts on writing a novel in the 19th manner. As for finding the key pattern, I'm not sure there is one in this case, because the plot may have been made intricate for the sake of intricacy. One interesting revelation in the Afterword is that the first draft was even longer and more complicated, and there are traces of that in the book as it stands. For my part, I'd find it reassuring if other postings appeared on here to show the topic is still going strong.
Well, I check in every now and then. But I've got little left to contribute for the time being.
Yes, I still check in every now and then too. I don't have much to say at the moment, but plan on re-reading The Quincunx again soon.
So, does anyone think that Palliser is trying to pay homage to Dickens by leaving this jigsaw of a plot completely unfinished in an analogy to the state of Dickens' own oeuvre, i.e. Drood? Which to me would mean that Palliser deliberately set out to craft an unsolveable mystery and we are all, alas, chasing our tails?
Eh?
JBW's contribution is a stimulating one. In the Afterword the author writes at some length about the possibility of writing a novel without actually being aware of all the perspectives of the plot, and I'm inclined to believe that we are to conclude that there is no definitive solution to the mysteries of the novel, just a range of explanations, none of which will cover everything. Two of his other novels could be mentioned, and there is a big contrast between them. Betrayals, like The Quincunx, is a tangle of plots and sub-plots which I could not fathom, but The Unburied, on the other hand, though it has puzzles in it, is explained by the Afterword, supposedly written some years after the events described by somebody making a very brief appearance in the main account. There has been a great deal of discussion about inconsistencies of many sorts in The Quincunx and I have wondered to what extent they are deliberate or just plain oversights. One thing that has struck me every time I read the novel is that John Huffam makes it clear that some years after the events related by him he is still trying to find a pattern in them himself. At the very end of his Afterword, the author relates how he witnessed a heated discussion between two readers who had reached diametrically opposed conclusions about the motives of Henrietta Palphramond and about the ambiguity of the last few words "where Miss Lydia's lover had died by my grandfather's sword". From my reading, I'd say he was pretty pleased!
Could be an interesting matter : is there sufficent clues in the novel to be able to find THE solution.
As Palliser is not a mathematician, I guess it is not the kind of questionning he thought about. He said he cut a lot from the original novel, then he may be cut very important clue.
So I believe it is indecidable. then JBW, u might be right, but CP didnt did it on purpose I guess.
Hi, I've just dicovered this thread and hope its not completely dead even though its over a month since the last post. I've read through the whole thing and have found many of the questions arising in my mind as I read the book have been 'answered' or developed.
One that intrigued me in particular is the 1812/13 birth date and more specifically the circumstances around Johnnie's conception and father. I lean towards 1812 simply because of the other corroborating facts that have been listed above and also because of my suspicions of what took place and the facts about the subsequent registration of the birth. Here's my theory for what its worth (and I appreciate its been set out separately and hinted at by various contributors above):
John was proably not conceived on the day of the wedding, for many of the reasons already listed by others (lack of opportunity, Mary's dicovery of the events of the night and therefore her state of mind, etc). As alluded to above, in the subsequent months she and MF either began an affair with the express purpose of creating a 'legitimate' heir, or this happened accidentally as a result of an affair. Whichever this was, it had to occur relatively quickly after 5th May, or a convincing case wouldn't be made for PC being the father.
Whether intentional or not, subsequently Mary (and maybe Martin if it was intentional) would have had to consider that a birth occuring much after the middle of February would not make a convincing case for PC being the father. So what does this mean for how they should deal with the problem?
I suspect that the reference in the record suggesting the child was unlikely to survive was due to him being significantly premature, maybe 1-2 months, and comments in the book about Johnnie being small for his age, are a clue to this.
My theory is that realising the implications of the dates, John's mother, maybe with MF's knowledge and encouragement, made sure that the pregnancy came to an end almost exactly 9 months after the wedding (they left it as late as possible). There are ways to achieve this without the aid of modern drugs.
One such way is to take the naturally growing plant in the UK Tanacetum parthenium, otherwise known as Bachelor's Buttons, or Wild Quinine (quin!), or....Feverfew.
As we know from the afterword and the book itself CP had been collecting and is attracted to interesting names. It really wouldn't surprise me that he put this little clue in there amongst all the others for his own amusement.
These are my thoughts on this one. As I said, I hope this thread isn't dead and would be interested to hear the thoughts of others on this slant on the birth date/paternity/conception date debate. I have only just read it and much of what's in the book and this forum I've yet to consider, but it looks like, notwithstanding the novel itself, CP has achieved something in generating such lively and though-provoking debate.
Good Lord! What an extraordinarily interesting post! It had never occurred to me that so many hints - the very real date difficulty, Johnnie's premature birth etc etc - could be so neatly tied up. This ranks with the "Mad Lizzie" posts as seeing something - possibly - that I had simply not seen at all, even on multiple readings, over many years.
CD - any thoughts on why the 1813 birth-date is so elaborately suggested (though I agree that Feb 1812 is still far more likely)? If Palliser is so acute as to plant the "Feverfew" riddle and solution, why would he also have Mr Advowson go on at length about circumstances of the baptismal record, some of which could not have been true (Sir George Rose's Act) in 1812?
AGB
Good question!
I don't know why 1813 is so strongly hinted at. As I see it, 1812, unequivocally could still have allowed all the uncertainties over John's father to exist, including maintaining the more obvious on the face of it conclusion that it was PC who is John's father.
Maybe it was just an additional mystery CP wanted to throw into the novel, or maybe, again as has been suggested in other contexts, 1813 as a possible date had other ramifications for parts of the book that were taken out in the shortening of it - and the afterword confirms that some of the 'complications' were deleted (although why not delete this too?).
This sounds like its too easy and unplanned, I know, but I really can't see that the book couldn't have been as interesting and maintained all the puzzles and plot devices that are in there if no hints at 1813 had existed.
In short, like you I can't see what mystery 1813 serves to create for the rest of the plot and the reader. Apart from the mystery in and of itself, of course - maybe this is good enough reason as its certainly created much discussion!
Oh, very good, very interesting point.
This complete the theory. In mt view (but I am not a doctor) the drug helps, but may be it not allows the excat date for the birth. In that case, it is still interesting to have a deal with Advowson. Also, as said here :
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/gix/quincunx/quin_acte.htm
I think Mary and martin declare the boy in 1813 in order to escape from Clothier chasing
Just a quick post to wish anybody still reading and contributing to this a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year (2009). I'm sorry that the discussion has petered out now but it has been an interesting read most of the time. I should like to make one observation about chronological discrepancies in The Quincunx. As mentioned previously, I have recommended the author's other work The Unburied as an excellent read, and anyone working through it will see strong similarities with The Quincunx. In my latest reading of The Unburied, which I finished this evening ( the time-frame is December 20th to 24th 1881, which makes it seasonal ) , I noticed that there are a few blatant errors of dates there too, and am now veering towards the view that they serve a purpose and are not just lapses on the author's part. In trying to reconcile all the discrepancies in The Quincunx I may well have been missing some of the point. Any comments from contributors, especially those who have read both novels, would be most welcome. Incidentally, has anybody seen any mention of the two new novels which were reportedly going to be published this year?
I agree that "The Unburied" is well worth reading. (I'd like to hear more about the errors in date, because I never notice things like that). I've just re-read it, with quincuncial connections partly in mind. I was struck by an anecdote it contains about a red coat being used to disguise one person as another, and looked at the accounts of the central night of "The Quincunx", but couldn't see anything suggestive.
But I was also struck by this reported speech, most of which doesn't seem to relate much to the rest of the book: "There are so many passages and dark corners where we could hide, that we used to play elaborate games of hide and seek that lasted for hours. And how we plagued our elders by secreting ourselves and spying on them or leaping out at them when they least expected it. We loved dressing up - swords, cloaks, beards".
As I've said before, I think someone (Barney?) was hidden in the plate-cupboard (just as Johnny is at the end of the book) and leapt out, with a sword, killing John Huffam, that night. But could that person also have spied on John Huffam first (just as Johnny does at the end of the book), so as to discover the secret hiding place that John didn't want Escreet to know about? By Martin's account, Escreet came to him to ask him to wait, leaving John in the plate-room. Was this not because John asked Escreet to leave, so as not to reveal the hiding place to him? So was Barney (or whoever it was) earlier secreted in the plate-cupboard so as to discover the hiding place, as well as to kill John?
I think Simon is on to something here. We have seen that Barney has connections to the Mompessons and given his criminal background possibly the Clothiers(?). I think Escreet was definitely trying to sell the codicil back to Huffam, but perhaps a third party such as the Mompessons, Clothiers, or even Martin Fortisquince placed Barney in the house to murder John Huffam. To get him out of the way once and for all. The murder might explain Escreet's confused and nervous behavior. Escreet only wanted to blackmail Huffam, not to kill him. Escreet's strange behavior at the time of the murder may only signal that he was extremely surprised by it, was not sure how to play the situation, and was likely terrified of being exposed as the blackmailer.
Hi!
I just finish reading the books for the 3rd time, and I went through a part of the discussion here.
It's clear to me that Palliser doesn't give any solution to John Sr death, and let doors open to many theories about it, ie Barney not answering about the murder he comitted that year, etc...
I have a question from the whole discussion here though: I read several times that Henrietta ends up in Calais (where David Mompesson stays as well).
As it also clear for me that she is pregnant with David's child when she marry Henry, the french translation I have here clearly states that it's Miss Quilliam, and not Henrietta, who's been seen in Calais.
If someone could clear that point for me, please, while I finish to go through your thread?
Thanks
Halfway through chapter 111, Johnny says to the reader "Helen was lost from sight and her companion as well - though I have been informed that the latter went to France and was last heard of in Calais". Together with his comment near the end of the last chapter that "...you have heard as much as I know of her later life when I described Helen Quilliam's fate and that of her companion", it's clear that it was Henrietta who went to Calais.
Ok thanks Simon for this, there is then a huge mistranslation in the french version, since the word "latter" in the sentence you quote is "the first one" (Miss Quilliam, then).
Another question that may sound naive, but:
John's baptism act (i don't know the english word) as well as Mary's death certificate state "Mary Mellamphy" for "Mary Huffam" (or "Mary Clothier").
Then how can they be a proof of the birth or death of Huffam's heirs? Can't they be easily contested by the others parts?
Hi Adeline,
In Gix's French website on the Quincunx (and in my translation to English of the same), there are several discussion points of significant mis-translations in the French edition. Not an easy book to translate at all, mind you, given the difficulty we have with all the ambiguities in native English!
( http://perso.orange.fr/gix/quinconce/index )
Also agreed that it's a real legal oddity that the documents use such different names. The legally crucial thing for John's claim is that he is the legitimate son of Peter Clothier and his wife Mary, nee Huffam. Although we've discussed above the notion that John is "presumptively legitimate", that notion is based on his clearly being the birth-son of Mary Huffam. As you say, a smart lawyer might say, so who's this Mellamphy woman........
Incidentally, thanks to Steve - the owner of this site - for allowing our discussions to meander on for so very long!
AGB
Bonne Annee!
Has anyone else noticed that Johnnie seems to have inherited his mother's gullibility?
For instance, he is under the misperception that Henrietta is in love with Henry Bellringer, and was, in fact, only taken in by Bellringer because she thought he himself dead, when in actuallity, by my take, she was in love with David Mompesson.
On my first read, I felt so sorry for Mary because she seemed to have no common sense at all as far as being a judge of character, and it seemed she was taken advantage by everyone. But on my second read, I think Mary was actually rather conniving, although, yes, lacking in common sense, but Johnnie seems to me to be totally lacking in ability to "read" people as well.
I also found it strange that she was supposedly raised in a "genteel" family, and yet her spelling was so poor and when she tried to post herself for a governess position, it was very clear she had no real skills in singing or music, which I thought every "lady" was trained in during that period. Which makes me wonder if she actually was John Huffam's daughter or if she was his mistress. She could have been the daughter, or illegitimate daughter, of a friend or relative whom he took as his mistress at a very young age, as it is said in the book that Jeoffrey Huffam did (patterns). Could it be that Mary herself killed John Huffam? She kept having nightmares about seeing him with blood on his face, etc.
I was very glad to find this discussion board. It really is an interesting book.
Many puzzles indeed! Who is John Huffam Jr.'s father ? Who, indeed, is his mother ? (Yes - it depends what you mean by "who is" !). Who killed John Huffam Sr?
The "who is Mary?" question is perhaps the biggest puzzle of all, with scarcely any clues at all. We're clearly "meant to believe" that's she's simply the daughter of John Sr. and a wife of whom we know nothing (and this in a book of immensely detailed genealogies). Yet as Cynthia (and others in the past) notes, Mary is a puzzle on many levels. Who really is she? Is it even possible that she's not John Jr.'s mother, and even not John Sr.'s daughter?
Phew!
AGB
I think the simplest explanation of Mary's birth is that she's the daughter of James and Eliza. That would fit with Lizzie acting as Mary's mother at Mary's death, and with Lydia referring to James and Eliza as John's grandparents, instead of great-grandparents.
Do we have a chronology that covers the time before the book starts, that shows that Eliza would be too old for this? I'm thinking in particular of James having taken up with Eliza when she was very young.
@ Simon Morris
Nope, I disagree, and precisely because I have such a chronology. But it does not show that Eliza is too old to be Mary's mother. Rather, it shows that Mary is much too young to be Eliza's daughter. :)
Whoever she is, Mary is NOT the daughter of James Huffam and Eliza Umphraville. If she was, she would have been born in 1770 (give or take a couple of months), for the secret double wedding takes place in 1769 and James Huffam dies in early 1771, which would make her not only a staggering 43 years old when she gives birth to Johnnie (!), but also of an age with John Huffam, sr. (who is or acts as her father).
For my fellow chronology-freaks:
By her own account, Mary is 17 in 1811, the year of the murder of John Huffam (545, US pocket ed.; Ch. 61, first relation). This would mean that she is born ca. 1794.
Leon, can you tell us when Eliza is born? Is it possible that Mary is offspring of Eliza and John Huffam? I'll have to go back and consult the book, but is it certain that John Huffam is the son of James and Eliza?
Thanks, Leon. I suppose it was foolish to imagine that a principal character's parents might actually have been married.
I see now that my post of 12 January, 2:21 is somewhat carelessly phrased. The chronology indeed "does not show that Eliza is too old to be Mary's mother." However, rather than showing that "Mary is much too young to be Eliza's daughter," it only shows that Mary is too young to be the daughter of Eliza Umphraville and James Huffam. Mary MIGHT be Eliza's daughter with John Huffam, as I have suggested somewhere in the above.
@ BAC:
As far as I'm aware, we do not know Eliza's exact age or date of birth. We may surmise however, that she was somewhere between 15-20 years old when she married James Huffam in 1769 and would therefore have been born in the late 1740s or early 1750s.
John Huffam (b. 1770) comes to to London and is taken in by jeoffrey Escreet to live in the house at Charing Cross “a good fifteen years” after James Huffam’s death (US pocket ed. 744). John Huffam is 16 years old at the time (545), which would make it the year 1786. By that time Eliza Umphraville is in her early- to mid-thirties and probably working as a prostitute. Just in time to give birth to a baby daughter fathered by John Huffam - but that of course is pure conjecture.
It is by no means certain that John Huffam is the son of James Huffam and Eliza Umphraville. He MAY be, but he MIGHT just as well have been the long-lost child of John Umphraville and Lydia Mompesson, the one which Isabella Mompesson assures Lydia has died just after it had been born (876). As far as I can know, we cannot be sure whose son John Huffam is.
Notice that if John Huffam is indeed the son of Eliza and James and if Eliza is indeed Mary's mother, then we're dealing with a case of (unwitting?) incest...
Oops, sloppy math on my part. Eliza is in her early- to mid-thirties in 1786, when John Huffam arrives in London. But given the fact that Mary is born some 8 years later in 1794, Eliza was in her early to mid-40s when she gives birth to John Huffam's child - if indeed she did.
(All of this is built on the conjecture that Eliza was between 15-20 years old when she married James Huffam in 1769.)
Thanks, Leon. Even though it is interesting to speculate that Mary may be the child of John Huffam and Eliza Umphraville, (and I'm the one doing the speculation), I have to say it still feels unsatisfying. The only clues that we have that Eliza is Mary's mother is Mary crying out for her mother as she dies and the clue by omission in the genealogy.
It just seems farfetched to me that John Huffam would either accidentally or by design develop a sexual relationship with a woman he suspects is his mother. I know other unseemly sexual behavior occurs throughout the Quincunx, but the idea of this potential union seems almost silly to me. Perhaps Palliser agreed and decided to cut all the information about Mary's parentage.
I just wish we had some more information about Mary's mother.
John Huffam needn't have suspected that Lizzie (as she would have been called when he'd have met her) was his mother. Escreet says that John spent his youth at Hougham (Chapter 87: "...that's where you've been living yourself until now, isn't it?"), whereas James and Eliza might well have spent their time in London. If Eliza had been ostracized from the Huffam family after James' death, there'd be no reason for John to have recognized Lizzie as the same person. And if John is really the son of John Umphraville and Lydia, then Lizzie wouldn't even be his real mother, which perhaps makes the whole hypothesis a bit more palatable.
Do we know any more about John's early upbringing (whether it involved James and Eliza, or not)? And incidentally, can anyone gloss Lizzie's comment that "he died shoreditch for he was foul of the strawberries - the only marks of a baronet"?
'And incidentally, can anyone gloss Lizzie's comment that "he died shoreditch for he was foul of the strawberries - the only marks of a baronet"?'
I've always read this - somewhat enigmatic! - remark as meaning he died a drunk ("strawberries" being slang for those red blotches on the face - aka "brandy blossoms" - that mark the right true toper...); and perhaps only baronets can drink themselves to death on brandy....
Not very satisfactory!
AGB
Hmmm... to follow up. A moment with the giant OED notes that "stawberries" can also be a reference to the pattern of leaves on the coronet of an aristocrat. But a Baronet doesn't have a coronet (only Dukes, Marquesses and Earls do.....)
AGB
Shoreditch is a neighborhood of London, which in the late 18th and early 19th centuries was an area of theaters, taverns, revelry, and presumably, vice. I think Lizzie's remark means that James died of drink, venereal disease, or both, in a seedy party of London where a rich aristocrat could throw away his money and health.
In answer to Simon’s question of 13 January, 4:26 AM, “Do we know any more about John's early upbringing (whether it involved James and Eliza, or not)?”:
As for James Huffam’s involvement in John Huffam’s early upbringing all we know is that it cannot have been very long lasting:
• John Huffam is born just before Jeoffrey Huffam’s death, probably to James Huffam and Eliza Umphraville, possibly to the late John Umphraville and Lydia Mompesson. The child named John Huffam must have been born before Jeoffrey Huffam’s death, for he rather than James Huffam inherits the estate under Jeoffrey Huffam’s second and final will, made just before his death.
• We know the precise date of the second and final will of Jeoffrey Huffam: 18 June 1770. This exact date is provided by Johnnie in his account of a conversation with Lydia Mompesson (829, all page references to the US pocket edition). (Note that, at this point in his narrative, Johnnie has not yet laid eyes on this second will and the exact date would therefore be unknown to him at that moment. Here we have one of the many instances in which narrator-Johnnie’s account of incidents and conversations from his past is less than accurate.) The date given by Johnnie is corroborated by Jemima Fortisquince, who claims Jeoffrey Huffam lay dying “in the Spring of ’70” (996). (Jeoffrey Escreet informs Johnnie that Jeoffrey Huffam fell ill “early in the Spring of the following year” (752), i.e. the year following that of the secret double wedding, which would therefore have taken place in 1869.)
• This second and final will of Jeoffrey Huffam however, is repressed after his death by Paternoster. Jeoffrey Huffam’s first will now being in force, James Huffam inherits the estate. According to Jeoffrey Escreet James Huffam conveys the estate to Hugo Mompesson “less than a year after his father’s death” (753) – i.e. in late 1770 or the first half of 1771 – and dies “soon afterwards” (754). This would make John Huffam (just) under a year old when James dies. If we are to believe Mary, John Huffam is “only a few months old” (544) at the time of his (biological?) father’s death.
As for Eliza’s involvement we cannot be sure. If after James’ death she continued to care for the child named John Huffam – who may not even have been her own biological son and no longer heir to an estate – she did not do so for very long.
• According to Mary John Huffam’s mother died when he was “a small child of three or four years” (544). After his mother’s death John is raised by the Huffam steward D. Fortisquince in ‘his’ wing of the Old Hall at the estate (now owned by the Mompessons) together with Martin, the child of his late, estranged wife and Jeoffrey Escreet. Martin Fortisquince is of an age with John Huffam, and his mother, too, has died when he was still “very young” (544).
Whoever may have been the source, it seems likely that Mary has been (deliberately?) misinformed about the death of John Huffam’s mother (or foster mother passing for biological mother?), for we can be reasonably sure that Eliza did not die in 1773 or 1774, but lived on to become Old Lizzie. But we do not know what really transpired when D. Fortisquince took him under his wing. Did Eliza willingly abandon John (as he was not her biological child, but that of Lydia Mompesson)? Was John taken from her by D. Fortisquince in order to secure the well-being of the Huffam heir? Was the care of the child forced upon him by the Mompessons?
Thanks, Leon. I suppose another difficulty with the John Huffam - Lizzie/Eliza hypothesis is that even if John didn't recognise Eliza/Lizzie (which would fit with the "unwitting meeting with one's mother (real or nominal)" motif), she would presumably have recognised his name, at least. For John Huffam must (I think) have married Mary's mother, or Silas Clothier would have challenged her claim to the Huffam inheritance, whereas we're told (I think) that he was only interested in John Huffam and Johnnie's legitimacy.
On the other hand, after Mary was married to Peter Clothier, and Peter Clothier was in the asylum, and under Silas' control, Silas would have less reason to challenge her legitimacy, because if she did inherit the Huffam estate, it would be controlled by him, via Peter, anyway.
That suggests another perspective on the events of the day of Peter and Mary's wedding. If Escreet hadn't sent Martin to Mary, then Mary would have ended up married to Peter, but with no child. So Mary's inheritance would have been under Silas' control, given that he could declare Peter insane. This is exactly how the Mompessons aim to gain control over the Huffam inheritance, via Henrietta. So was the plan, that ostensibly was dreamt up by John and Escreet, in fact suggested by Silas to Escreet?
We know that the faked argument between Peter and John didn't convince Jemima, as it was ostensibly intended to. But it worked much better as a way of providing Peter with an apparent motive for killing John.
If the plan is really Silas', then Escreet's sending Martin to Mary is a betrayal of Silas. And we know that Silas didn't acquire the will, as he must have planned. So did Escreet agree to Silas' plan only so as to acquire someone to perform the actual murder, but always with the view of subverting the plan to his own ends? Did Escreet deceive Silas, perhaps by sending papers other than the will to him, perhaps via the actual murderer, just as he did with Peter?
Simon,
I find your ideas interesting, but are you suggesting that Escreet and Martin conspired to impregnate Mary? Or did Escreet knowing Martin's passion for Mary, send him to her hoping that he would seduce her? What does Escreet stand to gain from there being a Huffam heir? Just further opportunities to extort money from the Mompessons, Clothiers, and Huffams, i.e., Johnnie?
I think Escreet wanted his own son, Martin, to father the continuation of the Huffam line. See his reaction to learning that Mary has a child, near the start of Chapter 64.
But Chapter 64 also says that Peter, not Escreet, sent Martin to Mary. It's difficult to know how much Escreet could have influenced Martin, given that they seem to have been estranged even at that time. Maybe this idea is a bit short of evidence.
But it's still an interesting idea worth pursuing.
I'll throw out another one that dovetails with yours: What if Escreet and Martin worked together on what I'll call the Huffam Will Scam? Here's my very speculative idea: Escreet wants to extort money from John Huffam in exchange for the will. He wants the money of course, but also wants to stick it to Huffam as an illegitimate son of a Huffam. For similar reasons, Escreet also wants to strike at the Mompessons.
I know this is unlikely given the strained relationship between father and son, but what if Escreet enlists Martin in this plan? It sounds a little ridiculous, but what if Escreet points out that with Huffam and Peter Clothier out of the way, Mary could be taken by Martin? Maybe Escreet further points out that if Mary were to bear Martin's child, he would be perceived as legitimate and the heir to the Huffam fortune? This is far-fetched for sure, but Martin has always seemed a suspicious character to me. Several characters in the Quincunx tell us that Martin is a paragon of virtue, which to me is Palliser telling us, “Pay attention to this character.” It has always bothered me that we are expected to believe that Martin is just the innocent deliverer of the will and nothing more. He then assumes the role of chief witness of every significant event on the night of the murder. This has always seemed a little suspicious. So, in sum, what if Escreet and Martin came up with a plan where Escreet gets to extort money from the two families that he hates most and Martin gets John Huffam and Peter Clothier out of the picture so that he can have his way with Mary?
I’ll throw in one last crackpot idea: What if Martin hired Barney to murder John Huffam?
I suppose I'm more convinced simply that Silas influenced the events of the wedding night. There are strong parallels between what nearly happened to Mary, and what was planned for Henrietta: an heiress enters a childless marriage with one of two brothers, who is then declared insane, so that her inheritance is controlled by her parents-in-law. I agree with an earlier poster's observation that repetition is central to The Quincunx, so I think the parallels extend to the authors of the two plans.
A much smaller reason for suspecting a connection between Escreet and Silas is in Chapter 61, 4th Relation: "Mr Clothier and his elder son came to the house in the morning and met Mr Escreet who was very nervous. It was strange to see him so frightened of so little a gentleman!". It does seem strange that fear should register, rather than dislike, or even hatred. But Escreet is later frightened of Henry Bellringer, in Chapter 92: "He looked frightened: 'Nobody else knocks like that. Hurry, he has his own key.'". I think Bellringer has the upper hand of Escreet at that time, despite being on, in a way, the same side, and that's why Escreet is afraid. And there's a similar case in "The Unburied".
I'm much less clear about whether Escreet made Martin aware of his machinations. My guess is that he didn't, but Martin is a difficult character to make out.
It's worth repeating some thoughts that have been much floated here, but never quite pinned down. In whose interest is it that Mary has a child?
Now, the conception of a child can be passionate (an unintended conception, a result of the passion of the moment), ritual (sex on the wedding night), or purposive (sex wholly for the purpose of conception). It's always been my feeling that, if Johnnie's conception took place at the time of the wedding, and if "ritual" was unavailable (ie, Peter the husband had no opportunity to have sex with Mary), and if "passion" was highly unlikely (it would be a damned odd night for Mary to have a wild fling with anyone!), then Mary becomes pregnant by someone other than her husband - Martin probably - quite deliberately, and with the purpose of deceit.
So, who is being deceived, by whom, and why? Is Mary a wholly knowing part of that plan?
In my many readings of the Quincunx, I've never been able to satisfactorily answer those questions!
[I throw in a nod to the intriguing theory that the conception took place many months after the wedding night - when it could have been the unintended result of passion, as well as utterly purposive...]
@ Simon:
I see your point about the parallels in Mary’s situation in 1811 and that of Henrietta in 1829. They are indeed part of the same set of variations on a theme that recurs in the score of The Quincunx like a leitmotif (a set of variations which also includes the situation of Anna Mompesson in the late 1730s as well as that of Lydia Mompesson in 1769).
But as to your suggestion that Silas Clothier “influenced the events of the wedding night” and that there is a “connection” between him and Jeoffrey Escreet I am not quite sure that I get your drift. Are you suggesting that Jeoffrey Escreet is somehow Silas Clothier’s creature in some kind of conspiracy against the Huffams played out on the wedding night? If so, how did this “connection” come about? And in what ways are their respective interests complementary? And, if getting the purloined will in their possession was (part of) the purpose of the conspiracy, what went wrong? For we know the purloined did not end up in the hands of Silas Clothier, but was mysteriously returned to Perceval Mompesson (possibly by Jeoffrey Escreet, who would thereby have betrayed Silas Clothier) “only a few days later” (841, US pocket ed.), according to Lydia Mompesson. (And note that it is unclear what she means exactly: A few days after the day she stole it? A few days after the day she handed it to Martin Fortisquince? A few days after the wedding day?)
@ AGB:
“the intriguing theory that the conception took place many months after the wedding night - when it could have been the unintended result of passion, as well as utterly purposive”
Of course that intriguing ‘many months afterwards’-theory only works if you support the thesis that Johnnie was born in February 1813 – and the evidence for that hypothesis is flimsy at best, resting as it does wholly on some internet sources claiming the George Rose act did not take effect until July 1812. It ignores all other references to real-world events connected with Johnnie’s birth date, such as the Radcliffe Highway murders and the Great Comet, as well as meta-fictionally speaking, the significance of the date of birth of Charles John Huffam Dickens.
If you support this ‘many months afterwards’-theory, however –and coming to my point – one thing the conception of Johnnie CANNOT have been is “utterly purposive”, for what purpose would a Huffam heir born out of wedlock serve to anyone?
The only way in which Johnnie’s conception can possibly have served anyone’s purpose – Mary’s, Martin’s, both Mary and Martin’s – is if it takes place within the relatively short period of time following the wedding night sufficient for the soon-to-be infant to pass off as the child of Peter Clothier – from i.e. early-May to, say, mid-July, and definitely not “many months after the wedding night”.
For some reason my long-ish reply to Leon - with new and exciting information about Sir George Rose's Act! - is being blocked by the server (maybe it has too many URLs embedded in it....). But it will appear in due course. There's a link in it to a fascinating Parliamentary speech by Sir George on the horrors of poor parish records pre-1812.
AGB
Leon,
Yes, I think Escreet and Silas did conspire, so that Escreet would suggest the wedding-night plan to John Huffam, which Escreet and Silas could manipulate for their own ends.
I think the connection came about after Escreet learned that John Huffam might acquire the will, which would have cost Escreet his house. The scene between Mary and Escreet at the end of the 4th relation of Chapter 61 suggests that Escreet didn't have confidence that John Huffam would properly compensate Escreet for the loss of his house. So Escreet could easily have covertly approached Silas at any time after the arrival of the will was announced to John Huffam, and before the wedding day.
Escreet could provide Silas with an agency in the Huffam household with which to thwart the successful marriage of Peter and Mary, and obtain or destroy the will. Silas could provide Escreet with someone to carry out the murder of John Huffam. (Jemima's description of Escreet killing John Huffam is notably unconvincing, given that Escreet is significantly older than John Huffam, and that John Huffam would have seen Escreet carrying the sword as soon as he entered the room).
One possible explanation for Peter's wearing a red coat when he returns to the house is that the real killer was also wearing a red coat when he entered or exited the house, so that if anyone had seen him, they would later assume that they'd seen Peter.
But if this is all true, I still don't know how the will was returned to the Mompessons. It would have given Escreet a way to make more money, assuming that the Mompessons paid him for the will. Perhaps Escreet sent Clothier a packet that didn't contain the will, just as he did Peter. Perhaps Barney was Clothier's agent (as Johnnie at one stage suspects) in the house, but takes the will to the Mompessons instead (they might pay more). Perhaps Barney killed the intruder as he left the house, and took the will from him, and back to the Mompessons - that would make the scene after Johnnie and Jemima leave the house in Chapter 122 another repetition.
@ Simon:
I find you hypothesis of the wedding night-events as a Clothier-Escreet conspiracy intriguing, but not, I’m afraid, very convincing. And I’ll go to some lengths to tell you why.
According to you “Escreet could easily have covertly approached Silas at any time after the arrival of the will was announced to John Huffam, and before the wedding day.”
Can you cite any hard textual evidence for such a covert approach? And why would Escreet approach a man he so clearly feared, as you yourself have shown – a man, we might add, from a family which he loathed? Escreet would rather die than seeing a Clothier come anywhere near a chance to get his hands on a means to possess the estate; hence his objections to John Huffam’s plan to ask Silas Clothier for a loan to purchase the codicil. He is, in fact, as Mary puts it “horrorfied” when he hears of the idea (Ch. 61, second relation, 548 US pocket ed.).
You write: “Silas could provide Escreet with someone to carry out the murder of John Huffam.”
Why would Silas Clothier agree to arrange for one of his ruffians to kill John Huffam if he, Silas, can only inherit the estate under the conditions of the codicil if and ONLY if BOTH John Huffam AND Mary meet their deaths during his lifetime (and there is no other Huffam heir alive)? In other words: why provide Escreet with a killer who is supposed to kill John Huffam and ONLY John Huffam while allowing Mary to elope with Peter? And taking the codicil with them (according to Mary’s journal)?!
Why would Escreet want to have John Huffam murdered? As far as we know from Mary’s diary and from Escreet’s own mouth, John Huffam (foolishly) trusts him completely. There is no evidence whatsoever that if the will now in effect is successfully challenged by the codicil or the purloined will, John Huffam will not let Escreet benefit from his new-found wealth and position. True, Escreet’s revenge upon the Huffams and the Mompessons would be undone, but provided his nefarious dealing remain a secret he would not necessarily be any worse off financially speaking.
You write: “Escreet could provide Silas with an agency in the Huffam household with which to thwart the successful marriage of Peter and Mary.”
Why would Silas Clothier design such an elaborate conspiracy just to thwart the marriage between Mary and Peter? It is not a Huffam-Clothier marriage per se he is against (in fact it is the condition on which he grants John Huffam the loan to purchase the codicil in the first place. As John Huffam remarks (in Mary’s words): “Have you considered the advantages of an Alliance with that family? […] Your and my interests in the Suit would then be identical to those of the Clothier Family: the Codacil would restore my Grandfather’s Title to the Hougham Propperty to me, and as my heir you would inherit it, and your marriage to old Clothier’s son would mean that the children of that union would be his heirs as well as mine” (Ch. 61, fourth relation, 552 US pocket ed.). What Silas Clothier is against is the fact that Mary wants to marry Peter rather than Daniel. And the conspiracy you are suggesting will not help to accomplish the desired union with his elder son in any way. However, in lieu of a union with Daniel, a union with Peter is the next best thing for Silas Clothier in order to get his hands on the Huffam estate, either by means of the birth of a Huffam-Clothier heir, or by making sure some harm comes to Mary and having Peter declared insane.
Besides, whatever conspiracy Escreet and Silas may have hatched in your view, it did NOT thwart the marriage between Mary and Peter, for the ceremony actually took place. And Silas does not need to have Mary’s brand new husband sentenced for the murder of John Huffam in order to get him out of the way; having Peter declared insane will do just as nicely. And he does not need a conspiracy with Escreet to accomplish that, as we know.
So, if thwarting the marriage of Mary and Peter was not the objective of the conspiracy from Silas’ point of view, what could it have been? You write: “Escreet could provide Silas with an agency in the Huffam household with which to […] obtain or destroy the will.”
In 1811 Silas Clothier knows nothing whatsoever about the last purloined will (1770) of Jeoffrey Huffam. All he knows or cares about at that time is the suppressed codicil (1768) to the earlier will. (In fact, in 1811 NOBODY knows about the will of 1770 except the Mompessons, Lydia Mompesson and Jeoffrey Escreet. John Huffam may have heard about from Escreet, but until Lydia writes to him disclosing the secret of its existence and offering to steal it for him, he thinks it was destroyed by Mr Paternoster or James Huffam.)
If Escreet has told Silas Clothier about the existence of the 1770-will (of which there is no hard textual evidence), why would he allow it to be destroyed by Silas? From Escreet’s point of view the will can best be returned to the Mompessons – that way his revenge on the Huffams will not be undone and he can make some serious money – which is the last thing Silas would want.
If getting his hands on one of the documents around which the plot of the novel revolves is Silas’ objective, it is the codicil. The codicil, and ONLY the codicil will get him the estate. So, if there is to be no marriage between Mary and Daniel Clothier only the following 3 situations are advantageous to Silas Clothier as objectives of a conspiracy against the Huffams with Escreet as his co-conspirator and inside-man:
1) the codicil in his possession + John Huffam dead + Mary dead = estate in Clothier hands; 2) the codicil in his possession + John Huffam dead + Peter and Mary married after which he has a) Peter declared insane and b) Mary killed = estate in Clothier hands;
3) the codicil in his possession + John Huffam proven to be born out of wedlock = estate in Clothier hands.
The conspiracy with Escreet you suggest will bring Silas Clothier none of these. So what’s in it for him?
Finally, in your hypothesis Escreet needs somebody else to kill John Huffam, since he cannot physically do so himself. You write: “Jemima's description of Escreet killing John Huffam is notably unconvincing, given that Escreet is significantly older than John Huffam, and that John Huffam would have seen Escreet carrying the sword as soon as he entered the room.”
Escreet is indeed some thirty years John Huffam's senior. However, only minutes after Jemima’s allegedly unconvincing account of Jeoffrey Escreet killing John Huffam that very same Jeoffrey Escreet quite effectively manages to kill Mr Sancious by surprise in a manner very similar to the one she has just described as having been used to do John Huffam in some 18 years earlier. And he manages to do so despite having reached the ripe old age of 90 (give or take a few years). You also have to take into account that Mr Sancious is only John Huffam's junior by half a decade or so and therefore in his mid-fifties at the time of his violent death – making his age-diffence with Escreet even bigger than the age-difference between Escreet and John Huffam. In other words: I don't think Escreet's age is the unconvincing part of Jemima's 'reconstruction' of the murder. (There are other much more unconvincing parts.)
Nor do I find your argument that John Huffam would have seen Escreet carrying the sword as soon as he entered the room very convincing. Is there any hard textual evidence to back that claim up? Is the lay-out of the room unambiguously clear? Couldn't John Huffam have been standing with his back to the door, rejoicing in seeing his dreams of regaining the estate realized now that he has the purloined will in his hands and oblivious to Escreet entering the room behind him with murder on his mind? Remember that Martin Fortisquince finds the body of John Huffam in the plate room (in Mary’s wording) “lieing face downwards,” the sword still in his body. This suggests as attack from behind.
Leon,
Thanks for replying to my post so fully. Many of your points are good ones, but here are my comments on some of them.
It would probably be difficult for Silas to kill both John and Mary Huffam, so killing one of them is better, for him, than nothing. And a large part of his putative plan is precisely that Mary is not allowed to elope with Peter, for Peter will be trapped in the house, and will stand plausibly accused of murder. It's true that Mary will be out of the house, with the codicil. But remember that if the plan had fully worked, Mary would only have gone as far as Snow Hill, which is in central London. Mary would have been completely alone, for Escreet wouldn't have told Silas that either he or Martin would have helped her. Silas would be able to deal with her, and the codicil, later - and, once married to Peter, she wouldn't be in a position to attract help from any potential husband.
If Peter and Mary had left London, as they planned, the position would be different. Silas wouldn't have been able to locate them, and they would probably have had one or more children, which would have multiplied Silas's problems.
You're right that Silas wouldn't have known about the will at that stage. He must have been desperate to find out why John Huffam delayed putting the codicil before the court - Escreet himself could have told him about the will. Do we in fact know when and how he ever does find out about it?
I find it difficult to see how Escreet could have entered the plate-room and killed John from behind. He couldn't have known that John would be facing away from the door when he opened it. So what was his plan for the eventuality that he opened the door, and John had seen him? Remember that any sound from John would be fatal for Escreet's plan. Whereas we know that someone hidden in the plate-cupboard can watch someone in the room, and if Escreet co-operates with that person to guide John to the right position and direction, that someone in the plate-cupboard could be certain of taking John entirely by surprise.
I agree that it's less easy to see just why Escreet would have wanted John Huffam dead. Maybe my view of Escreet's character is darker than the evidence supports, but I don't think it's implausible that he did, and Palliser goes to some trouble to explain how twisted and suffering he is.
Hi everyone, I’m still interested in what you all have to say about “The quincunx”, and keep on reading all your interesting comments.
If it is really the intention of Escreet to help (or conspire with) Clothier , why does he not simply (= for money) tell Clothier where the marriage ( James + Eliza) has taken place, so Clothier could destroy the proof of the marriage ? Correct me if I’m wrong, but in my opinion there is no mystery for Escreet as to know if and where James en Eliza are married ? Escreet knows it because he had a duel there with John Umphraville ?
Rita
Leon,
Here’s where I am with Sir George Rose’s Act of 1812.
Its full name is “"An Act for the better regulating and preserving Parish and other Registers of Births, Baptisms, Marriages, and Burials, in England: 52 Geo. III, c.146". That date tells you that the act was passed into law midway through 1812. Unfortunately, the official texts of British Statues are not available on-line, but only in Crown Copyright hard copy. Thus this text version is unofficial (and could be a Clothier forgery!):
However, here’s the full text of a published academic article that confirms: "The next important legislation relating to parish registers was passed in 1812 and became operative on 1 January, 1813. This act, known as Rose's Act, required baptisms, marriages and burials to be registered in three separate volumes, which were to be printed according to a prescribed form."
But there is a rather fun, further “official” confirmation of the Rose date issue. Hansard, the record of proceedings in Parliament, *is* available on-line. Here’s the Vote of Thanks of 10 February 1812 regarding the victory at Cuidad Rodgrigo:
and here’s Sir George Rose on 25 February 1812 – 2 weeks later – receiving permission to *introduce* the Bill that would later become the Rose Act:
Now, I agree with you – and always have! – that concluding a February 1813 birthdate for Johnnie from this date discrepancy is a conspiracy too far, even by Quincunx standards. My own resolution is that Palliser simply made an error in thinking that the Rose Act of 1812 governed 1812 itself, rather than 1813 onwards (a bit of Googling shows that this is a common error for folks to make….). But there are those here – led by our friend Gix – who think that this is too big a discrepancy to be an author’s error, and so have to speculate on why Mr Advowson specifically mentions both Cuidad Rodrigo and Rose’s Act, the first of which points to 1812 (as does other evidence, as you say) and the second to 1813. Gix has speculated that Johnnie may have been born in 1813 but that Mary and Martin “persuaded” the biddable Advowson to back-date his baptismal record by a year or so in order to make Johnnie the presumptively legitimate heir of Mary and Peter. That’s what I meant by suggesting that a birth in 1813 could have been a result of both passion and purpose: Martin and Mary, now genuine lovers, decide, sometime in mid-1812 that Mary needs a child and heir whose birth can be deceitfully made to appear as Feb. 1812 rather than Feb. 1813. As I say, a conspiracy too far for me (and, according to Gix, for Palliser too, whom in a letter to Gix said that a birthdate of 1813 for Johnnie was wrong). But the Rose Act recalled by Advowson simply did not come into effect until the first day of 1813…..
AGB
Here I spend several hours composing the most longwinded, tortuous and convoluted essay-length- post imaginable, trying to poke a hole in Simon's Escreet/Clothier-conspiracy-hypothesis, and along comes Rita casually posting a knock-down argument of a simplicity so sublime it actually had me staring at the screen in awe for several minutes... :)
Rita,
I think Escreet wants to preserve the entail - probably with a deliberate view to Martin entering the Huffam line. If he'd let Silas destroy the evidence of James and Eliza's marriage, that would have disinherited Mary, and ended Escreet's hopes of seeing his own progeny inherit. (At least via Mary, the simplest way - Martin's marriage to Jemima provides another, but surely Escreet couldn't have had any hand in that?)
I'm looking forward to Leon's essay, though :-)
Thank you Leon, now I’m blushing like Mary :-)but I don’t think Simon is giving up the battle yet ! So I’m leaving it to you both and will maybe come back later :-)
Another reason for thinking that Escreet is primarily interested in the Huffam line/inheritance is the timing of the events that lead up to the wedding. Why does Escreet choose to offer John the codicil at that particular moment, after concealing it for decades? I think it's because Mary has just become marriageable, and he sees a chance to re-enter the Huffam line, through Martin.
That raises the question of whether Martin is consciously under his influence, which I can't answer. It's disquieting that Silas' son Daniel pretends to have repudiated Silas, but really remains in league with him, for financial gain (if I'm remembering the building scam correctly). I think we're supposed to consider a parallel with Escreet's relationship to Martin, but I don't know whether to accept that.
......someone translate: Quid Quincunce speciosius, qui, in quamcunque partem spectavris, rectus est?
"What is more elegant than a Quincunx, which shows its perfect straight lines from whichever direction you view it?"
Or in less elegant language, it is upright whichever way you look at it, and the epigraph could be taken to mean that the novel is open to more than one valid construction.
Just a little question, nothing essential, just something I don’t understand : in chapter XLI a certain Acehand said something like (I have not the English version) “… I just saw him (= Peter Clothier) once Mr. Clothier sir, when I met you together with him some years ago ( You will not remember it sir but I was walking with my wife in Bow Common on Sunday at noon) he was just a boy then, because it was 20 years ago, and I knew that …it is said …. So, I said to myself Mr Clothier want to know this for sure”.
What does he mean with “and I knew that…it is said…?
I think Acehand is thinking "I knew that it was a portrait of your son", but doesn't want to say that in front of Sancious, and is trying to think of a way to avoid being so direct.
Rita - my reading is that Acehand is reluctant to actually say to Silas Clothier that Peter is known to be now confined in a madhouse, as a probable crazed murderer.....
And another Quincunx puzzle - how on earth does Acehand recognize Peter's likeness from a miniature portrait of someone he'd seen 20 years ago, as a boy?
AGB
One observation : (please, sorry for my English !!!) we know by the version of Mr Nolloth that Peter Clothier didn’t close the door when leaving the house, “so an intruder could have killed John Huffam”. But by my reading Peter Clothier left the house with a sealed packet (with the blood stained banknotes …) (version Martin, Mary (wedding night) Nolloth/Peter). So, if we do believe that it was really blood (red and sticky after several hours …) then John Huffam was already dead when Peter Clothier left te house…Or, am I wrong ?
I agree - I don't know how Peter Clothier and Mr Nolloth could have accounted for the blood-stained notes. They would have realised that the blood needn't have been John Huffam's. On the other hand, Mr Nolloth doesn't get the chance to finish telling Johnnie their deductions about what happened that night. Perhaps he was going to tell Johnnie who they thought had put the blood-stained notes into the packet. Could they have suspected Escreet, and was Mr Nolloth so anguished at being interrupted because he'd lost his chance to warn Johnnie about him?
Do you think a movie has been made on the quincunx, cause I would like to make it.I have read the story twice and I think that even the story was written in 1989 with a 1811 plot it would great to see it on the big screen. does anyone know how I can contact the author to get his consent for prodicing amovie on this amazing novel. Any help would be highly appreciated
I do believe that Palliser's literary agents (who are the folks to contact at the outset) are:
Giles Gordon, Sheil and Associates, 43 Doughty Street, London WC2N 2LF, England;
or,
Diane Cleaver, Sanford J. Greenburger Associates, 55 Fifth Avenue, New York, New York 10003, U.S.A.
A while ago I wondered why BBC Radio had never done an adaptation of the book - I suspect it would make magnificent radio drama, and Palliser himself has written several plays etc for the Beeb. I now can't recollect exactly whom, but a BBC source told me that Palliser had been approached but had been reluctant to allow any adaptation that would - necessarily - reduce and simplify the book as published.
AGB
Has any contributor seen any news or mention of the Charles Palliser novels that were supposed to be appearing in the autumn of 2008? On the topic of dramatising this particular novel, it is hard to see how it could be done without taking a particular view of the complicated details of the plot, and that would detract from the work's merits.
This seems to be the place to post questions/ideas about this novel.... I could have sworn that when John first tells someone about his mother's death he says he buried her under the name 'Offland', and when he tells the story to someone else later he says he buried her under another name (Mellamphy I think); I don't think he mentions the name when he's giving 'direct' narration of these events to the reader. Is this significant? I guess it could be; anyone trying to establish the facts of Mary's death may or may not be able to do so depending on which version of the story they received.
I haven't been able to check the text yet, but wasn't it the case that Johnnie actually tells that he hesitated slightly before using the name Offland for his late mother: i.e., that he's telling us he deliberately deceived his interlocutor? And the second time, when he uses the Mellamphy name he no longer has a reason to deceive anyone (though in truth I remember the second incident much less well....).
AGB
I've had a chance to look at this - and I think our memories of detail were a tad out.
When Johnnie has Mary buried (Chap.52), he gives the name Mellamphy, saying to us - the readers - that he did not wish to use their real name (by which I take it he means Clothier) for fear that word of his mother's death would rapidly spread.
A little later (Chap.70) when he has been taken in - literally and figuratively - by the Porteous family, he gradually reveals that he is a Clothier, and that he had buried his mother in a named parish as Mrs Mellamphy. As the chapter progresses this information is confirmed in court, and Johnny is now accepted as the Huffam heir, the son of the late Mary Huffam and Peter Clothier.
Although Mary had herself temporarily taken the Offland name as a disguise (when she and Johnnie first arrived in London), I think this had been long abandoned by the time of her death. I don't recall it being mentioned after Mary's arrest for debt. Though as it was the name of a village near the Huffam estates, it may be mentioned again much later in the book.
AGB
Interesting. I have a few theories of my own that don't seem to be discussed above (though I may have missed them in amongst everything else). My theories are the result of a sleepless night and are devoid of the impressive scholarship I see used above! So I'm expecting they wont hold up to scrutiny.
Okay, so my theory about why Huffam Junior doesn't accept the estate at the end of the book is all about the difference between law and equity. In law he could claim both the Huffam and Clothier fortunes. But I reckon that he's figured out that he has no equitable claim on either as he is neither a Clothier nor a Huffam. So despite all the good things he could do with the wealth, he thinks the right thing is to walk away from the whole sorry business.
Another theory: for such a large and complicated family tree, isn't it odd that at the end of the novel there are only two legitimate members left who haven't fled from the law. Henrietta and Jemima. Maybe that's why Jemima gives in so easily at the end... she's realised that with the death of her husband there's no point continuing the fight. She has no-one to pass it on to. So why not just give the will to John.
Might this explain part of why Johnnie doesn't attempt to live happily ever after with Henrietta? He realises that she will inherit everything when Jemima dies (except what's taken by the state) and doesn't want to pollute her claim (or that of her child).
Now my most controversial alternative theory of the paternity of John Junior. My assumption was that Daniel Clothier (aka Porteous) raped Mary. Seems to be in character. The old 'no-one else will want her now, so she's got to marry me' argument. Silas seems genuine when he accepts John as his Grandson. I suspect the Clothiers believe Daniel to be the father.
This in turn results in the rushed marriage to Peter (presumably on condition that any progeny is considered to be legitimate). But the wedding night goes wrong. I imagine a scene shortly after that with Martin along the following lines:
Mary: I might be carrying Daniel's child. If I am then I'll kill myself.
Martin: huh?
Mary: Peter said he'd marry me anyway. And if there's a child we'd accept it unquestioningly as his. But that's impossible now and I'll know it's Daniel's for certain.
Martin: I have a cunning plan. But don't tell Jemima. We'll consider it mine. We'll tell everyone it's Peter's. Forget about that odious Daniel. Oh Mary!
Mary: Oh Martin!
Presumably at some point previously Martin has asked John Senior for Mary's hand in marriage. And been told 'NO! You're not rich enough.". Hence the break down of the friendship. Mary may never have known this.
Some time after this Mary goes to Jeoffrey (her father's friend, confidante and legal advisor) not knowing that Jeoffrey hates her entire extended family and has architected disputes for decades. Jeoffrey is exultant about what he's pulled off: a dead Huffam, Clothiers blaimed, & the second will in his possession. Now the vulnerable Huffam heir walks into his office and pleads for help. And what happens next is an extended unspeakable horror of abuse, humiliation, rape, and quite possibly prostitution. Martin rescues her and spirits her away to the country. She retains an overwhelming (and otherwise irrational) hatred and fear of the old man.
My theory is that she doesn't actually know who the father is, but that for peace of mind she thinks of Martin as the father. However, I think John Huffam Junior considers Escreet as his real father by the end of the book.
Maybe I just have a dirty mind!
Oh, and did anyone else regularly misread 'Escreet' as 'Secret'?
Another theory: maybe Escreet has some proof that Huffam senior is actually an illegitimate Umphraville. Hence the Umphraville revenge. And he probably intended to use that proof when the second will is enforced so as to screw over pretty much everyone.
Thanks for reading.
Paul.
I'm re-reading it after a very long gap. I'd scribbled a chronology on the back of my copy and now can't read my own handwriting so am effectively still in the dark about what happens. Some interesting thoughts on here. One or 2 of my theories confirmed and some I hadn't thought of.
I'm really puzzled what to make of Martin. As several have commented CP is at pains to make so many characters speak well of him but there's really very little hard evidence to back up why we should have a good opinion of him.
I’ve been planning to go back and re-read the Quincunx for over a year now, but that might still have to wait.
Martin definitely is on of the biggest enigmas in the Quincunx. It is strange that several people speak so well of him yet we have no indication what it is about him that impressed others so favorably. It’s especially interesting given her vindictive character that Jemima has nothing malicious to say about Martin even though we know that he was involved in some sort of relationship with Mary and that he is almost certainly Johnnie’s father. I suppose it would be giving away too much for Jemima to fly into a tirade about Martin in front of Mary and Johnnie, but still it is strange that she has nothing bad to say about him.
I guess that I will repeat my theory about Martin and John Huffam’s murder here and see if there are any new comments on it.
We know that Martin transported the will from the Mompessons to John Huffam’s home on the night of the murder. We can either believe that he had no idea what he was delivering or that he knew very well that he had the will. If Lydia Mompesson trusted Martin, it is quite possible that she told him that she was giving him the will.
As for the murder of John Huffam, I don’t think that anyone thinks that it was committed by a random burglar or Peter Clothier, so it appears that it was planned in advance, most likely by someone who had knowledge of the practices of the Huffam household. I think that the most likely suspects are thus Escreet, Martin, and the Clothiers. I think that all or none of these parties could have been working together. I think that they also may have had another person working for them; someone to do the dirty work.
I will concentrate on Escreet and Martin since I don’t think the Clothiers are very interesting as murder suspects.
Escreet makes the most sense, given what we know of his character. He harbors deep hatred toward the Huffams and Mompessons and we know that he is already capable of murder, as he killed John Umphraville in a duel.
However, Martin has reason to be angry at John Huffam himself. Martin attempted to gain Mary’s hand in marriage, but was rebuffed by Huffam. After a long rift, Martin and Jemima are invited to a dinner party at the Huffam house on the day of Mary’s marriage. This is a curious way to heal the rift between the two men: Inviting Martin to see the woman that he may love on the day of her wedding to another man.
So, we know this: Martin has the will; Escreet almost certainly knows he has the will; both Martin and Escreet have reason to hate Huffam and desire his death. We don’t know if Martin knows that he has the will, but it certainly possible. Peter and Mary leave the Huffam house after the feigned “row” between Huffam and Peter. After they leave, the murder takes place. Escreet is in the room with Huffam when he is murdered. Martin is asked to wait outside and is in the hallways of the house. Jemima can see Martin and Escreet at times.
Although it is possible that Escreet or Martin committed the murder, I think that someone else was allowed into the room with Escreet and Huffam. This person murdered Huffam and purposely injured Escreet. Martin may or may not have been involved in this conspiracy. He claims to have seen someone in the hallway of the house that he took for a servant in the house at the time of the murder. This person is almost certainly the murderer and is later mis-identified as Peter Clothier due to the fact that he is wearing a red topcoat like the one Peter is wearing. So, Martin sounds the alarm regarding the murder, but he also could have been acting according to a plan to frame Peter Clothier. After all, Martin could have Mary with Peter out of the way.
While Martin and Escreet in particular could be the murderer(s) of John Huffam, we receive some information near the end of the Quincunx that complicates matters. At the very end of the book, Escreet will only admit to the murder of Umphraville, saying words to the effect that one murder was “enough” for him. At this point, with Bellringer dead and all of his plans for naught, there is not much reason for Escreet to lie about the murder of Huffam. We can’t say that he didn’t do it for sure, but the fact that he will not admit to it is interesting.
Also, when Johnnie asks Jemima if his “father” could have committed the murder of John Huffam, most of us think that he is referring to Martin and not Peter Clothier. Jemima say that she does not think that Johnnie’s “father” could have done it.
If these statements by Escreet and Jemima are true then Escreet and Martin are eliminated as murder suspects. As previously stated, no one thinks that Peter committed the murder and a random burglar simply isn’t interesting.
Forgetting the Clothiers for now, we are left with one person as the possible murderer: Barney Digweed. He is from the Huffam/Mompesson part of the country, he may have worked with his brother on the Huffam estate, and he could have met Escreet and/or Martin while working there. He then turned to a life of crime where he could have come to know the Clothiers.
I think it is significant that Barney is one of the first characters introduced in the Quincunx and is one of the last left standing at the end. Johnnie asks him at the end of the book about killing a man around the time of John Huffam’s murder. Barney only smiles and walks away.
I can’t prove that Barney committed the murder of John Huffam, but we do know that he is familiar with both the Huffam and Mompesson families, is a violent criminal, keeps popping up in Johnnie’s life, and does not deny killing Huffam.
Did Escreet and/or Martin hire Barney to kill Huffam? Did the Clothiers? I don’t think we’ll ever know, but in a book as complicated as the Quincunx, I like Barney as the murderer rather than Escreet. Escreet seems too obvious as the murderer, and while there isn’t a lot of hard evidence for Barney, he does fit the pattern nicely…especially for a book filled with complicated patterns.
I like BAC's analysis, and have long thought that Barney "must" be the murderer. But in the Quincunx, motivation is always either absent, obscure or contested.
So: a question. Who wanted John Huffam Snr dead, and why? I confess that I've never really been able to answer that question satisfactorily. BAC says Martin and Escreet did - but again, why? Especially in the case of Martin (who may well have come to dislike John Snr - but is that enough for death?). Given that no-one actually profits by his death (perhaps because a plot went awry in detail), who in advance thought that they would profit?
It's amazing - and one of the pleasures and puzzles of the book - how little we know of the characters at the end. Who was Johnnie's father? In a different sense, who was his mother (I'm sure it was Mary - but, in a book of dynasties, we know so little of who she really was.....)? Who was Martin (as noted, he's spoken of warmly throughout, but acts perhaps much less so). Who was Lydia ("who?" in the sense of the puzzle as to why she's presented as almost the only "reliable witness" in the narrative)? Who is Barney (I've always felt that there's an obscure hint somewhere that Barney is a little like Martin and Escreet - dynasty members from the wrong side of the blanket....)?
Pleasing puzzles to contemplate; but puzzles nevertheless.
AGB
The Clothiers profit from the murder, so I assumed they were behind it. They hate Huffam already, and they're quite capable of murder.
Everything Huffam owns goes to Mary. She's married to Peter, so everything is his. He's legally insane and Silas has the rights of attorney. They wait until after the wedding and then someone from their faction breaks in and kills Huffam.
Peter gets blamed and locked away in an asylum. They control Mary. Except of course that she disappears along with the codex they expected to acquire. So they spend a whole lot of effort searching for her.
Could Barney have worked for Silas? Why not? They seem to have connections to half the London underworld. He could be their agent.
Martin's presence in the house was probably just a coincidence.
Clearly put, P. Paul! The one thing I would argue against it is that, having gone to the lengths of plotting madness, mayhem and murder, the Clothiers then fail, on the night, to bother to secure Mary's person - which is the whole point of the exercise.
Martin does secure her person (and perhaps her intimate body too!), and easily secretes her away from the Clothiers (and Mompessons), for many years.
Again - was Martin's role co-incidence and chance? Or was he more deeply involved in the various plots, but quite determined to add a twist of his own?
AGB
Re BAC's comments about Barney as murderer of John Huffam:
Another reason for Barney to smile at the suggestion that he killed John Huffam could be that he killed, not John Huffam, but John Huffam's murderer, just after he left the house, and then took the will back to the Mompessons. That would fit with John Huffam's killer being an agent of the Clothiers', and Escreet's betraying their plans to the Mompessons.
It would also make Barney's nearly killing the possessor of the will on their way out from the house at the end of the book a near repetition of his earlier murder (and repetition is one of the guiding principles of The Quincunx).
Palliser goes out of his way to let us know that Johnnie assumes that John Huffam's murderer is alive at the end of the book: "Now it occurred to me that of the people present in that house on the night of my grandfather's murder [...] the only two survivors were present once again. Except, of course, for the murderer himself." His assumption suggests to me that he is wrong, and that the murderer is himself dead.
Finally, "The Unburied" also contains a story about a man in a red coat who is mistaken for someone else as he leaves a house, and is killed soon afterwards. And this story is told soon after the other paragraph that reminded me of "The Quincunx", that I mentioned in an earlier post.
Simon,
That's another of Palliser's enigmatic sentences:
"Now it occurred to me that of the people present in that house on the night of my grandfather's murder [...] the only two survivors were present once again. Except, of course, for the murderer himself."
Parse it, and it does appear that Johnnie is thinking that still alive are Jemima, Escreet and the murderer. But it's equally possible to read it as saying that, of the people I know by name to have been there, only two are now alive: ie, the murderer is an exception to what first occurred to Johnnie, not to the tally of the dead. The way Pallister puts it reminds me of that old detective-novel saw: "So, I was the last person to see the victim alive? No, the second to last......
AGB
I still like to believe that Martin is basically a good guy. My guess is that the Clothiers arrange for Huffam to be murdered on the night of the wedding. Somehow they know as much about the plan as Peter himself knows: the deception; the return later in the evening; the red cloak. But they don't know about the second will. Maybe Escreet told them the details. Maybe Peter trusted someone he shouldn't. Somehow they learnt the details.
My guess is they don't even know that Martin and Jemima are in the house. They just know that there will be some guests. They expect Escreet to call in the police and, in a day or two, they'll send in a lawyer and claim Mary is under their protection. Martin's presence is the spanner in the works. He gets to Mary before they can.
After Peter escapes from the room Silas had him locked in, he runs to the Huffams. He's bound to. But they don't try to get him back even though they just have to send in a lawyer. I reckon that someone, probably Escreet, goes to them and offers them a plan for revenge. They just have to bide their time until after the inevitable marriage. This ties in with my theory that Mary is (potentially) pregnant by Daniel and there's going to be a rushed wedding. They expect to get the Codex as part of the deal. Escreet knows about the second will and therefore doesn't care if the Clothiers get the codex.
Paul.
Another subject that interests me that I've not noticed discussed above is Palliser's literary influences. The Dickensian references are reasonably obvious, but there are others.
For example, the idea of a multi-generational and interwoven family tree seems to me pure Galsworthy. I couln't make any sense of the Forsyte Saga without drawing up a family tree and keeping it permanently by the side of me. And Mary's story comes across like that of a Thomas Hardy fallen heroine, especially Tess of the D'Urbevilles (Urberville and Umprhaville do sound kinda similar too). The aristocratic but mortgaged to the hilt Mompesson family trying to maintain appearances is also familiar, though I'm struggling to think of a good reference. The central mystery of the plot feels like a Wilkie Collins novel.
Are there other relatively obvious references that I've missed?
Good to find other obsessives!
Paul, Vanity Fair is another influence, I would say. Having just re-read The Moonstone recently, I think that and A Woman In White are also very influential. I'd even cite Jane Austen - after all, a great deal of what goes on in the novel is supposed to have occurred in the 18th Century or the very early 19th. Jane Austen doesn't dwell on illegitimacy but it's mentioned repeatedly in her novels in a discreet way, and you do get a very good sense from them how precarious social status and affluence could be, especially for women. Jane Fairfax is a woman who has been lucky not to suffer Helen Quillam's fate.
Hi MG,
Thanks for responding. I've not read Vanity Fair yet (it's on my to-be-read pile) and has just been bumped up a few places! A Woman In White reminded me of the mystery of the dual and the statues and so forth. It's been a good long while since I read it and so I've forgotten most of the details, but Palliser's style of mystery does seem comparable.
I hadn't thought of Austen as an influence. Emma is the only Jane Austen novel that really worked for me. The character of Jane could well be a model for Helen. Might have to dust that one off and give it another go too.
Johnie's adventure felt a little like the adventure stories of Stevenson, something like Kidnapped perhaps. That said, his story reads much more like a Dickens novel. I guess there are loads of stories in which children suffer over the intrigues of inheritance.
Paul.
Hello Simon,
You indicated!!!
"Palliser goes out of his way to let us know that Johnnie assumes that John Huffam's murderer is alive at the end of the book: "Now it occurred to me that of the people present in that house on the night of my grandfather's murder [...] the only two survivors were present once again. Except, Palliser goes out of his way to let us know that Johnnie assumes that John Huffam's murderer is alive at the end of the book: "Now it occurred to me that of the people present in that house on the night of my grandfather's murder [...] the only two survivors were present once again. Except, of course, for the murderer himself."
But later in the same chapter, Johnny says to himself, "I believe now that Peter Clothier was innocent, and my doubts about the truth of what she had said were gone, for by his actions Escreet had surely confessed in a manner more impossible to retract than any words".
IMO...Escreet murdered all three, Umprahville, Huffam and Sancious, and Johnny knows that.
It makes sense, there is a nice symmetry to the same murderer, killing, spanning over most of a century, a Mompesson (betrothed), a Huffam and a Maliphant(spouse).
Michael
hi all Quincunx readers!
I think I discovered another interesting point, that has not been discussed here yet. It is about the Digweed connection!
I reread the 13th chapter, because it corresponds to the first white dot in the Quincunx pattern. There is a very interesting sentence there, that does not mean anything to people who have not yet read most of the book.
It is the part where Barney first walks up to Sancious. Barney cassually says:
"weren't you the one who saved Conkey George from the prison ships?" and then: "he was a mate of mine".
(I read a translation so this sentence is probably not literally there).
Possible conclusions that rise from here:
- "Conkey George" is none other then George Digweed.
- George Digweed is not as innocent as he seems: he also was (or is) a criminal.
- Barney and George were (are?) friends/associates.
And most importantly:
- There is a (strong) connection between the Digweeds and Sancious!
This last conclusion would also explain why the Digweeds rescue JH from the mental institute. In that part of the book, Sancious has ligned up with (or married to) mrs. Forstisquence, and it is in their interest that JH survives until the old Colthier dies.
Loose ends:
1) What does Conkey mean?
2) What did George do that he had to be saved by Sancious?
3) Did Palliser hide this clue on purpose in the white dot (ch. 13) of the Quincunx pattern?
4) If so, what is hidden in the other white dots?
Shoot me.
In British English slang a "conk" is a large nose, so "Conkey George" would mean "big-nosed George".
AGB
Hello Michael,
Johnny seems to reason that Escreet's killing Sancious amounts to a confession of having killed John Huffam, by virtue of its being a repetition of that murder. But Johnny knows that he had to remind Escreet of the circumstances of his killing John Umphraville to induce him to kill Sancious. So the "confession" can only be a confession of having killed Umphraville.
Simon's point is a very good one. When Escreet killed John Umphraville in the duel, his opponent's attention had been distracted by Anna, which caused him to turn around. When Escreet kills Sancious, once again there is a distraction which enables Escreet to carry out the deed. To be fair to Escreet, he does not deny killing Umphraville, and in a duel he might have been killed himself. To consider that death a murder is being a bit harsh.
Concerning Custers’ questions above (July 30, 2009):
“3) Did Palliser hide this clue on purpose in the white dot (ch. 13) of the Quincunx pattern?
4) If so, what is hidden in the other white dots?”
You raise an interesting point about the identity of Conkey George, but by my reckoning Chapter 13 is NOT the ‘white dot’ of Book III ‘Fathers,’ but its top right black petal.
As you’ve no doubt noticed, the chapters in which Johnnie is not our narrator (bar 13 exceptions) are narrated by either Pentecost or Sliverlight (so that what at first appears as typical Dickensian omniscient narration turns out to be not omniscient, but from the perspective of two of the characters within the narrative world itself - this means of course that their perspective is just as trustworthy or untrustworthy as that of Johnnie's). In Chapter 13 I believe Pentecost is the narrator
If you’ve noticed this, you may want to compare the system in the division of narrative duties throughout the novel with the "tinctures" (colors) in the pattern of the 'quincunx of quincunxes' on the invitation to the ball to celebrate the marriage of Hugo Mompesson and Alice Huffam Johnnie finds on the dead body of Lydia Mompesson (887 US pocket edition, see also 872-877; included at the back of every edition of the novel). As you will see, the division of narrative labour in the novel corresponds to that design. Pentecost and Silverlight are represented in the scheme by black bud or petals, Johnnie by white ones, and the other three narrators who get to take center stage for 4 chapters each (Miss Quilliam [Ch. 37-40], Mary [61-65, i.e. 5 chapters] and Jeoffrey Escreet [Ch. 87-90]) by red ones. Every quatrefoil in the design represents one of the 5 books in every one of the 5 parts of the novel. Every petal and every bud represents one of the 5 chapters of each book. If you start with the bud of each quatrefoil the sequence of the various narrators follows the color scheme exactly. The ambiguous tincture of the bud of the central quatrefoil corresponds to the missing pages in Mary's diary which are at the heart of the central mystery in the novel.
Waow, such a long time i didnt post here.
I just wanted to pointed out how Leon explanations about the scheme and drawing are very interesting. I do not remember to have read something as detailled about that. And it could be also difficult to trust the drawing following the book edition... I was just wondering if it contains clues about the plot or not ?
Regarding Escreet, it is for me obvious, that Palisser want to point him as the John murderer when he killed Sancious. Of course we can think about Umphraville, but its in the same condition, same room etc. It is a rare moment in the novel where the writter gave us such a clear answer to one of the mystery.
Another point occurs to me about the red coats in "The Quincunx" and "The Unburied". In "The Unburied", it seems likely that the red coat is used to identify the victim to his murderers, although the victim thinks that it will instead disguise him (as indeed it does, from one person). Oddly, however, the narrator of this episode isn't explicit about this.
Looking for a parallel with "The Quincunx" suggests that Escreet arranged with Clothier for Peter and John's murderer to both wear red coats. He told Clothier that this would disguise John's murderer as Peter. But he could then have told the Mompessons to tell their own agent (Barney) to wait outside the house, kill whoever leaves the house (by the back door) wearing a red coat, and to take the will from him.
In connection with the question of the pattern in the narration of the various chapters throughout the book, though I think the discussion is interesting, I cannot see how anybody reading the book from beginning to end is going to notice the pattern. In fact, the author himself in his Afterword mentions his disappointment that nobody did. And of course a bigger question is whether the pattern of the novel offers any clues to solving the mysteries. May I say that I am a bit sad that this discussion seems to be tapering off a bit now, for that is my impression.
Reading the book again, I have thought of something that has not been raised before as far as I am aware. When John went to the house near Charing Cross on Christmas Eve and was denied admission, he assumed that it was Mr Escreet who looked through the hole and left him outside, but could it not have been Henry Bellringer, who might have been in the house with his great-grandfather? Previously John had been told that Henry Bellringer had gone away from his lodgings for a time. Mr Escreet would not have had much reason to keep John outside, but Henry Bellringer would not have wanted to reveal his involvement with the Huffam estate. Any comments from anybody?
Brian, I have a feeling this has indeed been mentioned before (though I can't find when!): but as a suggestion is does clear up one of many mysteries. That visit has always seemed odd to me, as if we are indeed meant to make more of it that the specifics suggest. A sort of "dog that didn't bark" plot point - why *didn't* something happen being more important than what did happen.....
Takes me to a wider - and irresolvable - thought. We know that, however fat the final Quincunx is, the manuscript was far, far longer. What might have been cut out? Bellringer is a central figure, but maybe there was much more about him. Perhaps the mystery of, say, who was Mary's mother was more written up. Maybe more of the Digweed's backstory was originally included.
So I guess I'm musing on whether every one of the many deep puzzles of the book was entirely planned by Palliser. Did perhaps some mysteries arise in the editing process, when developed plot was cut wholescale?
I've got into the habit recently of putting my favorite books in a sort of bedside holding pattern. I have a re-read on the go; but I have the next re-read in line on the nightstand, rather than keeping company on the general bookshelf. On the bed itself is presently Olivia Manning's "Fortunes of War". But lined up to the side is the Quincunx once again - the first winter chill, and I always turn to it!
AGB
Something I've just noticed during my current re-read of the book, and I don't think anybody has mentioned it before. The warder in Dr Alabaster's asylum who takes the sovereign offered by John is called Stillingfleet, which is also the name of a village between York and Selby which John may have passed through on his way south after escaping from the Quiggs.
Brian,
I agree with you that the door was not answered at the Escreet/Huffam home because Bellringer was there. Good catch.
However, as with more than a few mysteries in The Quincunx, I’m not sure there’s anything more to it. If you’re a good reader, it’s fun to pick up on things like this, but does it give the novel any deeper meaning? Does our belief that Bellringer was at Escreet’s home on this occasion provide any crucial information? As AGB suggests, maybe there was something there in the manuscript that was cut out. In that case, we’ll probably never know.
As for the question of the pattern of narration throughout The Quincunx, I did notice it was there. In fact, I’ve noticed it more and more on each re-reading. However, I’m not sure how I feel about it. It’s interesting, but it leaves me cold. Apparently, Silverlight and Pentecost are responsible for the framing narration, although one of them, Pentecost, I think, might be dead. Silverlight believes in order while Pentecost believes in chaos. That’s great, but it doesn’t tell me what happened on the night of Mary’s wedding.
I think that The Quincunx is a work of post-modern fiction. It uses such post-modern devices as unreliable narrators, uncertainty of the truth, (over)-complexity of plot, all the while hinting at possibly non-existent patterns that might provide a greater understanding of the whole. But is The Quincunx a failure as a post-modernist work? Most of us that write on this forum appear to respond to the novel’s huge, Byzantine plot, not the more philosophical issues raised along the way. In essence, many of us are here because we want to know who killed John Huffam. It’s quite possible that the response of Palliser or the book is “Who knows?” or “What does it even matter?”
I don't see how it can be concluded that Escreet does not open the door for John, when Johnnie announces his name as John Clothier for any other reason but for the name Clothier. Escreet had no idea at the time that Mary's child was a male.
The name John Clothier only denotes a Clothier.
The notion that Bellringer was present, seems completely unsupported.
So I think I'll go with Johnnies reasoning in Chapter 69, that the reason for Escreet not allowing John Clothier to enter, was because of the Clothier name whom he hated.
Chapter 69 - Johnnie narrating
"It was a bright but chilly mid-May afternoon when I arrived back in the gloomy, malodorous court. I asked my companion to wait nearby but out of sight of the house in order not to alarm the old man. Then I knocked, remembering how I had beaten my fists against that door on that earlier occasion. And now I reflected that it was no wonder that Mr. Escreet had refused to open it since I had announced myself under the name in the world he most hated and feared: Clothier."
Chapter 61 Third Relation
Mary writes:
"Now I have to make my Confession. I know that by the time you read this you will be old enough to understand. I have promised to tell you about your Father and now I will. I must first go back to what passed when Uncle Martin was trying to dissuade Papa from having anything to do with Mr. Clothier. You must know that what ... [At this point several pages were missing where my mother had torn them out and forced me to burn them.] ... that happened that night before we arrived at the Inn at Hertford, as you shall learn.
Now I've said it at last!"
I am curious about what she means by "...that happened that night before we arrived at the Inn at Hertford, as you shall learn."
Most likely the murder of her Father???.or that a pretend argument between PC and JH occurred. However in context Mary seems to be describing and admitting to the affair with Martin, that resulted in Johnnies birth.
That did not happen the night before Hertford.
Maybe this is the source of the incest speculation, and that the Father was JH..
I dont know!!
Any ideas?
Michael,
Mary’s exclamation, “Now I’ve said it at last!” bothers me most in the passage you quote. What could she possibly have said in the missing pages that would have caused her to write this phrase? That she had an affair with Martin? My issue is that, as readers, we actually know a lot more than Mary about the events surrounding her father’s murder. Mary wasn’t even in her father’s house when the murder was committed. The only thing we don’t know for sure is who is Johnnie’s father. To me, “Now I’ve said it at last!” suggests that Mary has written something about Johnnie’s father. I just can’t see her writing that with regard to the fake quarrel between Peter and John Huffam. “Now I’ve said it at last! My father and Peter argued that night!” That just feels wrong. So, I think it must be about Martin. However, is it possible that Mary is using the word “father” in the legal sense here and referring to Peter Clothier.
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I’ve finally started The Quincunx over again. Hopefully, I will be able to read it from cover to cover in a short period of time without any interruptions.
Something that I’ve noticed immediately: How does Martin Fortisquince know Mr. Sancious? And why did he enlist Sancious as his agent for dealing with Mary? I understand that Martin is ill, (from what, we’re never told), but having spent decades in the legal profession, why would he hire Sancious to provide assistance to Mary? Why couldn’t Martin do it himself? Isn’t the point to keep Mary’s identity and location secret? If so, why involve a third party? At least Jemima is Martin’s wife and a blood relation of Mary. Sancious has no connection to any of the families as far as I can tell. And if Martin were going to involve another attorney in Mary’s situation, why would he turn to Sancious? Did he know nothing or could he discover nothing of Sancious’ reputation? I’ve noticed that Sancious calls Martin an “esteemed colleague” or something like that several times. Is this meant to imply that Martin’s legal career may have been as unscrupulous as Sancious’?
Johhnie’s inclination toward self-righteous justifications for his behavior and his indifference to true suffering are more noticeable to me this time around. From a young age, he is infatuated with the idea that rules and laws can be bent or broken to get what you desire. His treatment of Sukey borders on brutal.
Doesn't Mary at some point tell Johnnie that it was *she* who found Mr Sancious, purely at hazard out of a legal directory, and then used him as an intermediary for correspondence between herself and Martin?
But even if I'm correct, we would need to ponder a) how did Mary have access to a legal directory in which ot find his name; and b) why Martin still did not immediately alert Mary - whose location he of course knew - to Sancious' reputation?
A wild, crazy idea occurred to me as I was finishing Book I last night: Is it possible that Mary's mother might be Martin Fortisquince's mother as well? By John Huffam? Making Martin and Mary half-siblings?
I don't have anything to back up this idea and doubt it will come to anything, but it just struck me last night that Martin’s mother is one of the most shadowy and mysterious characters in The Quincunx. “Shadowy and mysterious” immediately made me think of Mary’s mother and the idea just jumped into my head.
I don’t have anything to back up this idea now and don’t think I ever will, but I will keep an eye on it as I keep reading.
However, some circumstantial evidence that supports the theory: We know that Martin’s mother was very young when she became involved with Escreet, thus it would not be impossible for John Huffam to have a liaison with her after he had come of age. This would also explain Huffam’s strong opposition to Martin’s proposal to marry Mary. However, there were other reasons for Huffam to oppose the marriage as well.
Just a thought.
BAC,
Mary's mother could not have been Elizebeth Fortisquince, Martin's mother since she died when Martin was young, and JH would have been the same age as MF.
According to Mary's First Relation, Chapter 61:
"And Uncle Martin's own mamma had died as well when he was very young. (You remember, the lady who lived once in this little cottage of ours?)"
Mary's mother does remain one of the most glaring omissions of the entire novel.
Michael,
I was flipping through the book soon after I posted my idea about Elizabeth Fortisquince and happened upon the sentence you quote from Chapter 61. It does appear that Elizabeth was long dead before John Huffam came of age. However, let’s look at that sentence a little more closely.
"And Uncle Martin's own mamma had died as well when he was very young. (You remember, the lady who lived once in this little cottage of ours?)"
To me, this sentence could be taken two ways. When Mary writes “You remember” she could mean it in the sense, “You remember, I told you about this person before” or she could mean it in the sense “You remember that lady who lived in the cottage; you remember her because she was here when you were a baby/small child.” Although Mary writes that Elizabeth Fortisquince died when Martin was very young, that might not be the case and she could be letting some contradictory information slip.
Going through The Quincunx this time, I’ve noticed that Palliser frequently uses parenthetical phrases like the sentence above and often suggests through them that a character either knows more or less about some key information. I think that this is Palliser’s way of winking at us a little bit. A way of saying, “Maybe you should take a closer look at this.” I don’t think every parenthetical phrase needs to be parsed this closely and even the ones that invite it don’t always pan out, but it can be worth looking into.
So, as I wrote before, I doubt anything will come of my idea that Elizabeth Fortisquince is Mary’s mother, but I’ll keep my eye on it.
Just to complicate things further: What if Eliza Umphraville, Elizabeth Fortisquince, and “Lashing Lizzie” are all the same person?
Hi BAC,
I think (You remember....[snip]) means...what you said firstly above...“You remember, I told you about this person before”.
The cottage belonged to MF, inherited from whom Mary refers to as Martin's Father, Mr. Fortisquince (I can't find reference to his first name), the husband of MF's mother, Elizabeth Fortisquince, who was the Mompesson's land-agent.
EF came to stay at Mary's cottage, after Mr. Fortisquince threw her out, for her affair(presumably) with JE. So Johnny knows the origins of the cottage.
As for your suggested complication. I am sure that the Mompessons would have known the land-agents wife, EF, and Lydias sister-in-law to be as separate people.
They could not be confused.
As for Lizzie being Eliza, I believe there is much merit in this. Ive commented on that before.
I think we are all aware - though don't discuss directly so much - that a part of the Quincunx is a meditation on writing. How well can you put things to a) make them clear, b) leave them ambiguous, c) leave the reader not knowing whether you, the writer, are doing a) or b)....
The final sentence, often discussed, is a masterpiece of literary ambiguity - a perfectly constructed, and attractive sentence - that could mean pretty much anything a reader wants.
What's being discussed here is perhaps even more complex. At first glance:
"You remember, the lady who lived once in this little cottage of ours?"
seems to me unambiguous, because of the comma. Mary is *not* saying:
"You remember the lady, who lived once in this little cottage of ours?"
she's saying "You recall that which you know about the lady ...."
And we know that, if Palliser had really wanted this to be ambiguous, he's most certainly capable of re-jigging the sentence structure to make it so. (e.g., "And Uncle Martin's own mamma had died as well when he was very young. (The lady who lived once in this little cottage of ours - you remember?)".
But ...... then we have to recall that it is, so to speak, *Johnny*, not Palliser (!) who is telling us what Mary wrote or said. And Johnny is then, later, writing that down, for a purpose. So - has Palliser put that comma in because he wants - as authorial "God" - to make something clear to us? Or has Johnny put the comma in as an interpretation of what his mother said or wrote? And is that "interpretation" manipulation?
The funny thing about a sentence like "You remember, the lady who lived once in this little cottage of ours?" is that all depends on the pause / not pause between "remember" and "the". Spoken, the sentence can be very ambiguous, depending on the form of the transition between the two words. But written, you - the author, or narrator - has to decide one the nature of that pause / not pause; and where to place it.....
Interesting stuff (especially if you are a writer!).
AGB
Michael and AGB,
I think it is most likely that the phrase starting with “You remember” means only that Mary mentioned Mrs. Fortisquince to Johnnie before, but I do think the sentence can be interpreted in the second manner that I suggested. I don’t think that I’m necessarily right, but, as I wrote, I do think Palliser often calls attention to ambiguous information with parenthetical phrases. They occur every few pages throughout The Quincunx.
As I’ve written before, I think The Quincunx is a post-modern work. I think Palliser has constructed a narrative that often points out its own fictional nature and undermines its own credibility. I think the sentence about Mrs. Fortisquince is a good example of Palliser’s method. The sentence does not prove that Elizabeth Fortisquince was alive and well and living at the house at Melthorpe when Johnnie was a very small boy, but it makes me think that this is possible. By doing so, it makes me wonder about the reliability of Johnnie as a narrator and the veracity of the information he gives us.
As for Elizabeth Fortisquince, I had been thinking about her recently and noticed that we have three mysterious Elizabeths in the narrative: Eliza, Elizabeth, and Lizzie. What do we know about them? Not much, but we do know that Eliza was a precocious and promiscuous young woman. She married James Huffam but appears to have disappeared from the narrative after his death.
But another Elizabeth appears in the narrative. What do we know about her? That she is young, beautiful, and promiscuous. She is married to Fortisquince, but has an affair with Escreet that produces Martin. Is it possible that Eliza Umphraville was sequestered at Hougham for some reason? Was she fobbed off on Fortisquince by the Mompessons in order to keep an eye on her and then became Escreet’s lover? I don’t know. I’m about two thirds of the way through The Quincunx and haven’t found any new information about Elizabeth Fortisquince. I’m resigned to the fact that I never might. I just think it’s interesting that Elizabeth Fortisquince mysteriously appears at Hougham in time to have an affair with Escreet and give birth to Martin. We are told that she dies soon after these events, but I wonder if she lived on indefinitely at Melthorpe.
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Btw, has anyone else noticed that in Mary’s diary Jemima is accused of trying to “trap” John Huffam into marriage? I took “trap” to mean that Jemima may have been pregnant by Huffam. Does anyone else think that this might be possible?
Hmmmm - "trap" could mean any number of things. When I first ever read this, I was reminded of "War and Peace" (and not just because of its similar thickness!).
There's a famous scene of the entrapment of the rich Count Pierre Bezukov by the awful (and somewhat impoverished) Prince Vassily Kuryagin and his scheming daughter Helene. Vassily is careful to throw the couple together in social settings. Helene is careful to flatter and blush. But Pierre is unengaged (in every sense....). At a reception, Vassily simply puts the two young things together in a salon, and retires, with all his guests. He expects Pierre to have been cornered into proposing. After a while - nada. So he, Vassily, simply bursts into the room and declares "Congratulations!", followed by his smart set. Poor Pierre doesn't have the wit to object, and is soon - calamitously - married off to Helene...
AGB
AGB,
That's funny. I was thinking of re-reading War & Peace after finishing The Quincunx. I consider Helene's unexpected death one of the great miracles of literature.
I understand that Mary's use of the word "trap" isn't conclusive, but it is suggestive. Overall, during this go-round with The Quincunx, I've been struck by the intensity of Jemima's hatred for Mary. Mary's relatively privileged upbringing doesn't quite account for it, in my opinion. However, John Huffam rejecting the marital advances of a pregnant Jemima certainly would.
I've noticed some other oblique references to unwanted pregnancy in The Quincunx. In Chapter 35, Helen Quilliam states, "shortly after arriving here, I was taken ill and and Mrs. Peachment nursed me." This is after Helen has been turned out by the Mompessons. As we know, she most likely had an affair with David Mompesson. To me, it sounds like she may have been pregnant by David. Sally Digweed also states that she is "ill" when she attempts to return to her family in Chapter 86. Her mother states that she won't "help" Sally. Again, nothing conclusive, but "ill" might be a way for a woman to refer to pregnancy in polite society at that time.
Speaking of the Digweeds, I've just finished the section of the book dealing with Johnnie's escape from Alabaster's asylum and his extended stay with that mysterious family. To me, this is one of the strangest passages of The Quincunx. I plan to write more on it later, but I'll point out something now that I noticed last night and has been bothering me.
This is Johnnie writing about shore-hunting in Chapter 85, p. 546, American paperback: "Mr. Digweed explained to me that he had been taught it by an old man, Bart, to whom he had done a favour once many years before."
Something about this sentence bothered me. It was the name Bart. Why is this person named? And what was the favor George Digweed did “to” him. After playing around with the name in Google a bit, I noticed that it's an abbreviation for Baronet. Hmmm. That's interesting.
Baronet made me think of the Mompessons at first, but it also made me think of Lizzie's line about James Huffam dying "shoreditch" with only "strawberries" to mark him as a "baronet." I always took "shoreditch" to mean the London neighborhood Shoreditch, but noticed this time that it's not capitalized. Could Lizzie have meant that James Huffam literally died scavenging by the shores of the Thames? Did George Digweed encounter "The Baronet" or "Bart" there? I don't know, but it's interesting.
"Trap" might mean something like the way Rosamond traps Lydgate in "Middlemarch". He thinks of himself as flirting gallantly with her, but is then persuaded that everyone has thought of his attentions as more serious, and that she would be socially compromised if he didn't follow through with a proposal.
Isn't Jemima's dislike of Mary largely due to the fact that Jemima's husband fathered a son with Mary, and then financially supported both of them?
Another question about her back story: presumably she knew she was, potentially, a Huffam heiress at the time she was employed by John Huffam. Does that fact help explain her trying to marry him? What might have been her game plan during those years?
Sorry, I should have been clearer. Here are the reasons behind Jemima's hatred of Mary:
1. Mary had a life of relative ease and privilege compared to Jemima. (I would dispute this a bit, as we know from various sources that John Huffam was very short on money and could barely provide for Mary's education. Still, Jemima was a governess and, as we know from the saga of Helen Quilliam, a governess’s life is not to be envied.)
2. Jemima and John Huffam appear to have had some sort of relationship. It appears to have been casual, but Mary mentions, through her father, that Jemima tried to "trap" Huffam into marriage. I take "trap" to mean apply social pressure toward a marriage, as several of you have stated and also, possibly, that Jemima allowed herself to become pregnant in order to put A LOT of pressure on Huffam. Huffam seems to have kept his cool. If Jemima was pregnant, we don’t know what happened to the baby.
3. Martin almost certainly fathered Johnnie with Mary and provided for both of them at Melthorpe.
It just really struck me this time around how many reasons, at least in her own mind, that Jemima had for the blackest hatred toward Mary. The rejection of a marriage proposal is one thing, but the rejection of a pregnant woman is much worse. John Huffam really was a cad. Jemima’s hatred is one of the key factors driving the action of The Quincunx.
Simon, I had assumed that even at a young age that Jemima might have known that she could potentially inherit the Hougham estate. This must have made John Huffam especially attractive in her eyes and must have made her positively sick with anger when she was rejected.
Jemima's point of view is interesting. I agree that it can hardly be a coincidence that she became a governess at the house of a Huffam heir. (I think somewhere this is rather unconvincingly explained by way of the family connection). Her marrying John Huffam would then have hedged her bets - if that marriage had produced a son, then he would have been in line to inherit, and if not, then there would be fewer heirs with higher precedence than her. And proximity to the Huffams might have helped her bring the codicil to light.
On the other hand, it's just as striking that Martin, who first tries to marry one Huffam heiress, then goes on to marry another. Does that make him more calculating then he sometimes seems?
Finished the book over the weekend. Enjoyed it very much as always. I was a little disappointed that nothing new concerning the plot jumped out at me. Nothing big, at any rate. However, this time around, I experienced a greater appreciation of Palliser's skill as a writer and his attempt to weave modern concerns into the Victorian novel. Who hasn't felt tempted to find order in chaos like Johnnie? Even if we suspect there is only chaos.
I'll drop in a few notes here and there over the next few weeks, but I doubt I'll come up with anything big.
Here's something that I noticed:
In Ch. 61, in her first relation, Mary states of her father's house "it was built on a site of a medieval priory - St. Mary Rouncivall..."
I looked up St. Mary Rouncivall and it was indeed a priory in Charing Cross. I also found out, having not read The Canterbury Tales in many years, that Chaucer's Pardoner was, most likely, associated with this same priory house.
I don't want to go into a lot of detail, but the Pardoner is very hypocritical and tells a tale full of greed and violence. Sounds like The Quincunx to me.
The pilgrims in Chaucer's epic are, of course, on their way to the cathedral at Canterbury, the site of the brutal murder of St. Thomas Becket.
Palliser mentions Canterbury several times in The Quincunx. Apparently, the Maliphant and Bellringer families first got to know each other there.
I’m not sure that there’s much here, but it is interesting. Is Palliser just an admirer of Chaucer and name-checking one of The Canterbury Tales? Or is this allusion to St. Mary Rouncivall a clue leading to some more important information?
I think that's an excellent observation. The Pardoner's Tale is largely about betrayal, of which (I think) there is a great deal in "The Quincunx" (and, of course, "Betrayals"). Those of us with a particular view of exactly how John Huffam was killed will agree with one of the characters in "The Pardoner's Tale" that two against one is a good way to carry out a murder.
In addition to Simon's observation earlier today, I should like to draw attention to the murder of Mr Stonex in The Unburied, carried out by two, and also the package of bloodstained banknotes which incriminates the man who took them from the premises of the murdered man, as instructed. And as the main account in the book ends with Christmas Eve, it would be appropriate to wish everybody who contributes a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
I have recently been thinking of Palliser’s other books too, but I was concerned with a different aspect of them. Homosexual relationships between men figure quite prominently in “Betrayals” and “The Unburied.” After finishing “The Quincunx” again, I was a bit surprised that, given all the heterosexual shenanigans in the novel, there appeared to be no homosexual relationships. It would seem de rigueur for a modern writer to include a nod to homosexuality in an update of a Victorian era novel. Indeed, Sarah Waters has made a career of writing lesbian “takes” on the Victorian novel. (That’s not a putdown, btw.)
However, while going over the passages surrounding John Huffam’s murder, the sexuality of one character did give me pause: Peter Clothier.
There’s not a lot there, but enough to make me wonder. Peter is described as “peculiar” or some variant of that term several times. Now, “peculiar” could just mean that Silas and Daniel Clothier think that Peter is strange and possibly insane, but I did wonder if “peculiar” were a 19th century code-word for gay, much like the word “queer.” In Mary’s Fifth Relation, (Ch. 61, p. 420, Am. Paperback), Silas Clothier states: “Daniel is my heir, not Peter. Why Peter is…He broke off and exchanged a look with his son who said: We’ve tried to keep it from you, Miss Huffam, but the truth is my Brother has always been peculiar.”
Proof of nothing, but interesting.
I wound up thinking about Peter’s sexuality because of another character: Mr. Nolloth. Something about Mr. Nolloth has always bothered me. Just when Johnnie is at his lowest point, Mr. Nolloth shows up and presents him with a version of the events surrounding John Huffam’s murder that completely exonerates Peter. It’s always seemed a little too pat to me. But there was something else that bothered me too. It’s certainly possible that Nolloth is just a character meant to pass along yet another version of Huffam’s murder, but I found myself wondering what his motives were. He may be motivated by a sense of moral outrage at Peter’s treatment, but he also seems to care deeply about Peter. I started to wonder if there were some sort of relationship between the two men. That might add more motivation to Nolloth’s contact with John. Nolloth wants to let Johnnie know that Peter has been treated unjustly because he thinks such treatment is wrong and Johnnie has a right to know as Peter’s son, but also because he’s outraged on behalf of someone he loves. Such strong feelings could account for Nolloth’s extreme certainty about his interpretation of the events surrounding John Huffam’s murder. I’ve always thought it strange that Nolloth seems very sure of events of which he has no direct knowledge. His strong feelings for Peter make me think that he wants his version to be true because he wants to think more highly of the man that he loves.
Overall, the character of Peter bothered me a bit more this time around. First of all, Peter seemed crazier to me. He didn’t seem like a poor, misunderstood young man any longer. He seemed genuinely disturbed to me at times. I found it plausible that he might have killed John Huffam. Not necessarily likely, but plausible.
One issue that really bothered me: Why did John Huffam allow Peter to stay at the house at Charing Cross and marry Mary? It seems to me that once the will was obtained by Huffam, he had no further need for Peter Clothier. It could be argued that Huffam intended to get rid of Peter at some point, but if he did, why let the marriage happen? It only allows the Clothiers to stay in Huffam’s life. Even if the Clothier’s claim to the Huffam estate via the codicil is knocked out by the will, they still could eventually seize the property if Peter is declared insane, they take control of Mary’s affairs, and murder Huffam. Why wouldn’t Huffam just put off the marriage until he has placed the will before Chancery and then get rid of Peter? If anyone wants to argue that Huffam wants to allow Mary to marry Peter because she has her heart set on him, I think we can agree that Huffam has little or no respect for the feelings of others and hates the Clothiers. I could see him letting the marriage plans go forward only while he has the codicil, but after he has the will, there is no reason for him to allow a Clothier to marry his daughter.
Happy holidays to all!
Hello, all. I’m glad to have found this site. I first read The Quincunx a few years ago, and just recently started reading it for the second time. This page has contained a lot of interesting ideas, and it will certainly affect my reading.
I have always assumed that either Peter Clothier fathered John Huffam Jr. before the wedding (he had plenty of opportunity while he was living in the same house as her) or Martin Fortisquince fathered him after the wedding. John makes it clear at the end of the book that he believes Martin Fortisquince to be his father, but we know that he is often wrong. I’ve decided to leave it at that, because, in truth, I don’t think the identity John’s biological father is really that important. As AGB has pointed out more than once, his father is Peter Clothier in every way that matters. So his paternity has never really been one of the central mysteries of the book for me, and I’m comfortable with not knowing.
The thing I struggle with the most is the murder of John Huffam Sr. I wish I could just chalk it up to another mystery unsolved, but there are so many details that just don’t make sense. The problem isn’t that more than one explanation are possible; the problem is that *no* explanation seems to fit.
Here are some of the questions I have:
1. Why does Escreet hate and fear Silas Clothier? I’m going to be looking for the back story in my second reading, but I remember never finding a satisfactory reason for this the first time through.
2. Why, as BAC just asked, does John Huffam Sr. allow Peter to live with them and marry Mary? This makes no sense that I’ve been able to determine. He has no reason to want to ally himself with the Clothiers, and absolutely no reason to want his daughter to marry a younger (and therefore non-heir) son of a lesser family who moreover has been found legally insane. Before this he has shown himself to be quite calculating about her future, and he had little regard for her interests. The only possibly reason that I’ve been able to think of is that he suspected that she was pregnant. But I doubt it, because she herself seems surprised when he says he wants them to marry quickly. So what other reason could he have?
3. Who would want to kill John Huffam Sr., and why? I can think of at least one motive for murdering Peter Clothier, and a slew of motives for murdering Mary, but among all the different characters, who had a reason to kill JH Sr.? I can think of *no one* who would directly benefit from his death. Does this mean that the motive must be a personal one? Stemming from an emotional reason?
As for the sequence of events on the night of the murder … I just don’t understand what happened. I have a million questions. The more I think about it, the more I feel like an idiot. I have a ton of questions about all the details of that night, but I’ll just post one for now:
4. Why are Peter’s hands bloody when he returns to Mary after going back to get the package? “He came into the room smiling... When he approached me I saw that his hands were bloody. I started back in horror. He looked at his hands and said: ‘Yes, I have cut myself. But don’t worry, it’s only a scratch or two.’ He washed the blood off at the washstand and when he turned again I noticed that the sleeve of his coat was torn” (chapter 61). The blood is not from the package, because later he is astonished when he unwraps the package and discovers the bloody money within. (This question may have been answered later in the book, and I simply forgot the answer – if so, I apologize.)
I have (so many!) other questions, but for now I’d be interested in what people think of these. Any answers or speculation will be much appreciated. And of course, I especially welcome whodunit theories regarding the murderer himself (or herself).
Hi Ellen,
Just my answers (plenty would disagree with them):
1. The hatred is the authentic Huffam hatred for Silas Clothier, who must see the Huffam line extinguished if he is to inherit. The fear is because he acted as Silas Clothier's agent in the murder of John Huffam, albeit for his own benefit, and, as a genuine, though illegitimate, Huffam himself, for the benefit of the Huffam line. You can see why he ends up mad.
2. Over-confidence.
3. Silas Clothier wants to extinguish the Huffam line, and killing John Huffam is only a part of his plan for making sure that Mary has no legitimate offspring. I think the will that John Huffam plans to reveal would mean Escreet losing his house, and we see John Huffam neglecting Escreet in other ways, shortly before the murder.
4. I think Peter cut his hands breaking a pane on the inner door, on his way out of the Charing Cross house.
1. Escreet's attitude toward the Clothiers has always been one of the biggest obstacles for me in believing in an Escreet-Clothier murder conspiracy. He’s scared to even be in the same room as Silas – so how could he have formed a plot with him? One scenario that I’ve often considered is that every single person in the house wanted to kill John Huffam Sr. (or do some other unscrupulous thing that night), and that each person did something they wish to conceal later – which is why the different accounts are in disagreement. Perhaps none of them intended to conspire, but as the events of that night unfolded they became unwitting partners, and afterward had no choice but to continue lying. I’d still like to know what each person really did that night, moment by moment, and who actually committed the murder. Escreet as the murderer has always seemed a bit too tidy to me, and by itself it doesn’t explain everything. I guess your view is that Escreet was definitely the one holding the sword?
2. Can you elaborate? I think over-confidence might explain John Huffam Sr. being (foolishly, and with his characteristic rashness) unafraid of the match, but it doesn’t explain why he positively hopes for it to take place.
3. That’s true about the neglect of Escreet (plus the house). And if Silas Clothier intended to also kill Mary that night, or shortly thereafter, it also makes a little more sense that he would plot to kill John Huffam Sr. I also think that Martin Fortisquince must have strongly resented John Huffam Sr. (for a number of good reasons), and his motives and version of events cannot be trusted. And Jemima remains an unsolved mystery to me, but surely she had her own personal reasons.
4. But Mary said that the key was always kept on the inside, so he would have been able to unlock it. This is part of the sequence of events that I don’t really understand, hence the feeling stupid. I’m going to read more carefully this time, and take notes, and maybe in a few days I’ll understand more.
Hi Ellen,
More comments to follow, but I think I can at least answer the question about the cut on Peter's hand. There are two doors to the "front" of John Huffam's house, (i.e., the door opening onto the court behind Charing Cross), a street door and an inner, vestibule door.
On the night of the murder, Jemima sees Escreet take the big key out of the street door and then lock the vestibule door while Peter is presumably collecting the will and other documents or murdering John Huffam. Escreet puts the key on top of a grandfather clock. After Escreet moves away from this part of the house, (presumably to lock the back door), Jemima places the key on the floor by the vestibule door.
Peter first attempts to leave Huffam's house by the back door and then the front door. The doors are locked, but he notices the key on the floor. Peter breaks a pane of glass in the vestibule door, reaches through it, cuts himself, opens the vestibule door with the key and leaves the house.
A question:
Why does Peter break the glass? I'll read his explanations over again tonight, but his behavior does seem a little guilty. Was he just panicking? If so, what did he have to panic about?
Sorry, I meant to say "unlocks the vestibule door with his cut hand, opens it, and then opens the street door with the big key."
Hi Ellen,
1. One point about Escreet's fear of Silas is that it's only visible after they might have agreed to conspire. At that stage, Silas could control Escreet by threatening to tell John Huffam of Escreet's betrayal. Another point comes from a similar manifestation of fear in the central episode of "The Unburied". There it seems to be that the pawn is afraid of the player just because their relationship involves power, of one sort or another. To answer your other question: no, I think an agent of Clothier's actually killed John Huffam, and was himself killed by Barney not far away from the house. (There's more detail about this idea above, round about February and July 2009).
2. John Huffam is only pleased by Peter's and Mary's proposed marriage after Peter warned him of Silas Clothier's plan to claim that John Huffam was illegitimate. That proved to John that Peter was on his side, not on the Clothiers' side. I also notice that John was spending a lot of time with Escreet just before this point, and that Escreet seems very well-informed about how to get a marriage arranged quickly, so my guess is that Escreet was laying his plans at that stage. Notice that it suits Escreet for Mary to marry Peter, for then Escreet can solicit Clothier's help in ensuring that Mary can have no legitimate offspring (Clothier's goal), but then subvert that plan to ensure that his own son provides a Huffam heir.
4. I thought I understood why Peter broke the vestibule-door glass, but it turns out I don't... We're told that Escreet locked the vestibule-door with his own key. That explains why Peter couldn't just open it from the inside, so presumably the lock could be overridden from the outside? It sounds a pretty odd way to set up a lock, which is normally supposed to keep people out, not in... But I've never understood why Palliser introduced this double set of doors anyway. Isn't it the case that everything we know about would have worked just the same if there'd been one door, which Escreet would have locked, the key to which he would have put behind the clock, for Jemima to retrieve, and which Peter used to get out? He wouldn't have had blood on his hands when he returned to the Blue Dragon, but that wouldn't change the story much.
By the way, I don't think you need worry about sounding stupid. I read "The Quincunx" at least twice without really getting to grips with the details, and didn't really see anything very far below the surface before finding this site.
1. I agree with what Simon writes about Escreet and Clothier, however, I wish this line of the plot were not dependent on one sentence in Mary’s diary. As the Clothier/Escreet/Digweed conspiracy may have been responsible for John Huffam’s murder, I wish that we were given a few more hints about it. (I suppose it has to suffice that we know that Escreet spent time at Hougham as a young man, is the father of Martin, and that Martin’s legal father, David Fortisquince, was the Mompesson’s land agent at Hougham, and he knew Barney and George Digweed. Since Barney and, possibly, George Digweed became involved in criminal activity in the London underworld, it’s quite possible they came into contact with the Clothier family as well.)
2. I do tend to agree with Simon’s view of John Huffam’s “overconfidence.” I think Huffam was so giddy at the prospect of obtaining the will and through it the Huffam estate that his judgment was severely compromised. Consequently, every aspect of his “plan” seemed like a good idea to him, even though it may sound ridiculous to us when described with hindsight.
I differ from Simon in that I don’t take as generous a view of Huffam and the wedding night plan. Given what we know of Huffam’s character, I think he wanted to hurt and insult many of his friends and family members by the time he obtained the will. I think Huffam may have thought Peter was spying for his father and only pretended to trust him. By obtaining the will, Huffam could stick it to the Mompessons and the Clothiers and he could embarrass and insult the Fortisquinces by inviting them to the wedding dinner. I also think that the “quarrel” was part of a plan to set up Peter and get him away from Mary. Perhaps Huffam just wanted to twist the dagger even further with the Clothiers or perhaps he had designs on the Clothier fortune, we’ll never know. Daniel Porteous states that Huffam and Mary were after the Clothier fortune.
4. That’s an interesting point about the vestibule door lock, Simon. In general, I think Peter’s cutting his hand on the broken window pane is one of those ambiguous incidents that Palliser specializes in. If you believe Peter killed John Huffam then breaking the glass by the door makes him seem guiltier; he would do anything to get out of the house because he had just killed Huffam. If you feel more charitably toward Peter, you could just dismiss the broken glass as the result of Peter panicking because the other door was locked.
I must admit I’ve never really understood the significance of the doors and the vestibule. Characters go out of their way, (especially Mary), to point out their significance and nothing really seems to come of it. Peter came in through the back door onto Charing Cross and left through the front door into the court behind Charing Cross, right?
1. The Escreet-Clothier conspiracy theory does make more sense to me in light of the explanations of Jeoffrey Escreet's behavior above. (Although I remain undecided about what happened on the wedding night.)
2. Over-confidence as an explanation also makes more sense now, having read your responses. However, another powerful reason for John Huffam Sr. to eschew a marriage between Mary and Peter Clothier is that this marriage puts both Mary and any subsequent heirs and their property in the power of Silas Clothier, because supposedly Peter Clothier is only safe from being carted off to "the Refuge" while he remains in John Huffam's house or on the lam -- which obviously cannot be for long. So either John Huffam Sr.’s giddiness did indeed compromise his judgment very severely, as BAC suggests, or he had other, more sinister plans that no one else knew of (which BAC also alludes to) and which I don’t yet understand.
On this topic, the very basis of John Huffam Sr.’s wedding night plan makes little sense. Why would he plot to send the will off to places unknown with his new son-in-law, when he should have been planning to present it the very next morning in court?
4. This is a troubling point. Without the key, Peter Clothier would have needed to break down the entire inner door, not just a single pane of glass. And why do this, when he easily could have gone back to ask for the key? And how could Martin Fortisquince not have heard this? For that matter, how could he not have heard even a single pane breaking? I don't really understand the device of the double doors, either.
I’m going to wait until I finish the book before I speculate more about the murder night (I’m on chapter 118 now). Here are some other things that I've been thinking about since I last posted:
Has anyone else considered Barney as the possible son of Miss Lydia? (If this possibility is proposed above, I missed it.) This would explain the emphasis on his “strangely beautiful” blue eyes, which comes up more than once, and which match Miss Lydia’s own eyes. Also, as we have seen, the aristocracy had a habit of ensconcing their illegitimate children in the families of their trusted servants, which Mr. Feverfew and his relations were at one time. If Barney himself had guessed it (or at least guessed that he was adopted), it would also explain the way he doesn’t fit into the Digweed family, and has little familial feeling for his brother, Mr. Digweed, as evidenced in the scam he perpetrates on him.
I’ve also been thinking more about Henrietta, and the suggestion here (much earlier) that she is a better representation of the morality that John Huffam Jr. holds dear. I haven’t finished the book yet, but it is already occurring to me that her character may in some ways act as a foil to Johnnie’s character. She is a sort of alternate Johnnie, one who passively allows her fortunes to be determined by others for the sake of never compromising her morals even slightly. Which is the better path to take?
Hi Ellen,
Go to the end of September 2007 for a discussion of Barney being Lydia's child.
It's possible, but I think Barney would have to be around sixty years old at the end of the book for it to work.
Most of us think John Huffam is Lydia's child.
Henrietta doesn't get mentioned a lot around here, but she is a fascinating character. She acts as a sort of conscience to Johnnie and makes him very uncomfortable at times. However, as you will see by the end of the book, she's morally compromised herself.
1. Just to clarify my view of the putative Escreet-Clothier conspiracy: I don't think Barney was involved in it, so Barney doesn't need to have known Clothier. I think Barney was the agent of the Mompessons, and that Escreet told them who (the red coat!) would be leaving the Charing Cross house carrying the will, and when he'd be doing it. (There's another strong correspondence with events described in the central episode of "The Unburied" here). So Escreet betrayed John Huffam to Silas, and John Huffam and Silas to the Mompessons. No wonder he went mad.
2. Nolloth's explanation of that aspect of the Charing Cross charade is that John Huffam wanted to make sure the will, Mary, and Peter, would all be safe, and that he decided this could best be accomplished by sending all three into hiding. But he makes it very explicit that the plan was originally Escreet's, which suggests to me that Escreet suggested it with his own ends very much in view. I think that if John Huffam had worked out his own plan, it wouldn't have been so convoluted, and have had so many features that don't fully fit with his own interests.
Simon,
1. Do you think the Mompessons had enough time to arrange for someone to be at Charing Cross in order to take back the will? Was this person, let's say it was Barney, supposed to kill the person holding the will? Why not just take it from that person by lesser force? Did Martin know anything about all of this?
2. Yes, I think most of the wedding night plan came from Escreet and Huffam was very easy to manipulate into agreeing with it given his overexcited state. However, I still wonder what Huffam intended toward Peter. Huffam obviously did not want to be murdered, so what did he want to happen to Peter? I find it hard to believe that he just wanted Peter and Mary to live happily ever after. Did Huffam think he would lure Peter back to Charing Cross and have him arrested under the bill of lunacy and perhaps some trumped up burglary charges? Would Huffam then pursue some sort of claim against the Clothier estate? Even though Huffam had the will right before he died he still had no money. On the other hand, Silas already tells us that Peter will not be his heir.
An idea that’s been bothering me for a while now:
I wonder if George Digweed is involved in the murder of John Huffam. There are hints throughout The Quincunx that George once led a life of crime, that he once did a “favor” for a Baronet, that there is a sewer entrance close by the house in Charing Cross, and that he received a hundred pounds for his injuries suffered while working for the gas company. A hundred pounds was quite a lot of money in those days. Probably too much to have been received as just a “set-off” from an employer. Sounds more like it could be the reward for murder.
BAC,
Looking for evidence that the Mompessons had time to help arrange Monday's events, I find that Perceval and his wife were "abroad" (Chapter 95) on the Monday in question, and that the will was returned to them "a few days later" (Chapter 97), between which times they accused Lydia of stealing the will (Chapter 95). I think "abroad" might only mean "outside London", but even that wouldn't leave them enough time to react on Monday. And if they'd known before Monday that the will would be stolen, they would just have removed it from where it was then hidden. So I think whoever held the will at (say) midnight on Monday must have kept it until after the Mompessons returned and discovered the missing will, and only then sold them back the will. That seems to point to Escreet. Could Escreet have commissioned Barney himself, without telling him what exactly what it was that he was to steal, and without telling the Mompessons? It's possible, but I'm not sure whether it's really convincing.
Simon,
I think the problem with the will being returned to the Mompessons is this: Escreet had the most to gain from taking possession of the will and selling it back to the Mompessons, but Barney’s possible involvement in Huffam’s murder suggests a Mompesson/Fortisquince angle to the will’s return. The two are at odds with each other. It is possible that Escreet and Clothier both knew Barney and hired him for the job, but it doesn’t feel right, does it?
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A tangent on further Digweed involvement with Escreet and John Huffam’s murder: There are several hints throughout the book that George Digweed either knows Escreet or knows of him. First of all, he refers to Escreet as Johnnie “Grandad” several times, causing Johnnie to wonder at one point how much George knows about him.
But I like this example best: On page 460 of the American paperback, when Johnnie makes his first visit to the house in Charing Cross he writes, “The place was deserted, except that a man in a shiny cap was standing on the corner where the house protruded, and idly smoking a long-stemmed pipe.” I believe this man to be George Digweed, wearing his shiny oilskin, scavenging cap and smoking his long-stemmed pipe.
I haven’t had a time to read any more, but here are my responses to some of what has been written here since I last posted. (I’m in a hurry, so please forgive any mistakes.)
BAC wrote, “Go to the end of September 2007 for a discussion of Barney being Lydia's child. It's possible, but I think Barney would have to be around sixty years old at the end of the book for it to work. Most of us think John Huffam is Lydia's child.”
I found the mention of this possibility in late September 2007, but I think it was dismissed too quickly. In the family tree, Miss Lydia is of the same generation as John Huffam Sr., meaning that her child might be about Mary’s age, give or take a couple decades. Also, I can’t find any mention of Miss Lydia’s age at the time of her elopement with John Umphraville; if it isn’t specified, she might have been anywhere between sixteen and thirty-five, making it impossible to estimate her child’s age based on hers at the end of the book. Regarding Johnnie’s guess at the beginning of the book that Barney’s age is between Mary’s and Bissett’s, if Mary was in her mid-twenties and Bissett was in her forties or fifties, Barney could have been anywhere between his early thirties and forty. When Johnnie is staying with Barney at the “carcase”, he describes his physical appearance twice without giving any age-specific details. I suspect that Palliser was purposefully being abstruse about this, as usual. Anyway, my point is that I don’t think we can really say with any certainty what age Barney is, or what age Miss Lydia’s child should be. So I don’t think that age can be used as a determ